Perhaps this should be reported on the “Passenger” forum, but I know that there already is considerable dialogue on this topic in this “General Discussion” forum already, so here goes:
President Boardman announced yesterday (Tuesday, September 28th) that Amtrak proposes 220 mph HSR on dedicated track from Boston to Washington DC (with a few selected intermediate stops) for $117B (funding uncertain and as-yet uncommitted), with project commencement in 2015.
I skimmed through their document last night. This is the one American market in which HSR makes sense. They figure $117 billion over 25 years with new line between NYC and BOS except for terminals and terminal approach.
As a business it would never fly, about $1billion operating income before debt service, but their benefit case is built on several other items.
If the administration had any sense this is what they would push, not $8 billion for not quite as slow trains to nowhere.
PS. I do not live anywhere near the NEC, so I am not trying to butter my own bread.
It’s intersting that Amtrak is anbnouncing a “30 year plan” (i.e so far in the future that they don’t need to be concerned with funding it at the present time)…
I wonder if this how this would affect future plans to upgrade the older Catenary on the existing NEC trackage (i.e south of New Haven). The new HSR trackage would presumably be exclusively for the 220 MPH plus trains but that can’t possibly replace the existing line with all it’s regional and commuter trains…
PR stunt. They were joking, right ? But they missed April Fool’s Day by about 6 months, either way . . . My daughter would say “They’re all crack smokers, Dad”.
Establishing an entirely new separate ROW in this corridor is politically ‘Dead On Arrival’, unless it is stitched together out of old abandoned industrial sites and urban jungles and the like where no one cares any more . . .
I know Daniel Burnham’s maxim - ‘‘Make no little plans. They have no magic to stir men’s blood and probably themselves will not be realized. Make big plans; aim high in hope and work, remembering that a noble, logical diagram once recorded will never die, but long after we are gone will be a living thing, asserting itself with ever-growing insistency. Remember that our sons and grandsons are going to do things that would stagger us. Let your watchword be order and your beacon beauty. Think big.’’
If they can not make the NEC true HSR where can they? As to the costs they seem to be adding a new two main track line from end to end, some on existing ROW, some built new. That is a tremendous scope of work, but less really than a four lane interstate end to end, and would certainly require less land.
I don’t doubt your $120 per ticket subsidy number but what would be the real costs of building alternative capacity? That is the $120 Billion dollar question.
PDN: Why do you make the assumption they would be using an entirely new ROW (100 ft. wide)? The article did not explicitly say that, merely a new set of tracks. Perhaps they would largely use the old ROW, and eliminate access to freights?
Update: I found a link to the complete proposal and it appears that new ROW alignment would be used, to a large extent except use of existing ROW in and out of the major cities en route. Click the link in the webpage to get a pdf of the vision report.
The existing former New Haven/PRR ROW does not have room for wide enough curve radii in many if not most locations. Thus the proposal for a new alignment…
Thanks much for that link, schlimm. From it, I was able to find the below direct link on Amtrak’s website for the report, which is titled “A Vision for High-Speed Rail in the Northeast Corridor”, Sept. 27, 2010 - 32 pages, appprox. 3.5 MB in size:
Read Chapter “3” of the report. A new 2 track line, following Interstate Highways or abondon railroad right-of-ways.
On the north end the map shows, a run following Interstate I-684 from New Rochelle to Danbury, then east along what was once the New York & New England Railroad (New Haven Highland Division) (I-84) to Waterbury. Much of this line is now I-84. Out of Waterbury, through the Terryville Tunnel to Bristol and Hartford, now in use as an active freight line. Again east from Hartford to Woonsocket RI and onto the Northest Corridor at Route 128 Station (I-95).
Skip Providence??? Skip New London??? Skip New Haven??? Skip Bridgeport ???
120 years ago The New England Limited (The Ghost Train ska The White Train) ran New York to New Haven on the New Haven, moved inland over the Airline Railroad to Willimantic, then followed this proposed, X NY&NE, route on to Boston — 6 Hours.
I really believe a new route avoiding expensive real estate is a good idea, especially since it follows a successful model from other nations. It was my impression that the existing route would continue to be upgraded as well.
The Trains article on TGV (August 2010) says that good trains can “induce” travel (p.35). I disagree: the demand for good transportation was repressed. Americans are being denied a freedom that is being restored in other nations.
I know that - I was just trying to get a ‘handle’ on where all that money was going to be spent. And from that little calculation, we now know for sure it’s not going to be the ROW acquisition that makes this scheme so expensive . . .
The Pepsi thing is funny - especially if it’s accurate ?
You’ll see in my first post on this thread way above that I too have the Burnham quote - the entire paragraph, too. Since then, I’ve skimmed through the study. I agree that we need and deserve such trains. I just don’t think that is the way to do it - it’ll never get the political support it needs, and the pay-off/ benefit of actual trains running at those high speeds on the new route is too far away, both in time and location. And after the Boston ‘Big Dig’ cost overruns and falling concrete ceiling panels fiasco, it’s going to be real hard to get money approved by Congress-critters from other parts of the country for yet another huge public works project in the NEC region . . . [sigh]
Better to upgrade the existing NorthEast Corridor - yes
Not sure where to start! I do agree that this area The Northeastern US would be prime for this project as the population already is served by AMTRAK with a pretty good service, and there is a developed mindset that demands it. I would think that the most efficient way to bring in Higher Speed service would be a series of targeted projects utilizing the current ROW. Short sections might be able to be purchased to round out curvature and other infrastructure needs and issues. But to develop whole, new routes between cities would be a tactical nightmare around urban areas, not to mention the political blowback of individuals who would be caught in the line of construction… It would seem to be easier to develop new equipment that could handle improved track infrastructure . THAT WOULD SEEM TO BE MORE COST EFFECTIVE, AND BENEFICIAL TO IMPROVING THE N E C 's needs for more speed, and service frequencies.
The next phase would be to link outlaying urban centers to the established N E C’s then existing services. At that point examination could be made to parallel existing rail R O W’s, or even utilize the center median concept for placing rail links. Admittedly, that creates it’s own set of problems with re-tailoring the Highway traveling public and their needs as to expansion in that mode. That would allow service t possibly be expanded into western N Y State towards Buffalo and eventually Cleveland (?). The service could be expanded to the Southeastern Coast by utilizing under utilized existing ROWs and the Abandoned ROWs to add to the proposed new service areas.
{ As an aside, I lived for a number of years through the debacle of the East-West I-40 link through Overton Park in Memphis Tenn through the 1950’s and on until the State of Tenn and other involve
For the sake of continuity I copied my comments in the Passenger forum with a correction and additional thoughts.
“…The bypasses…are a strategy practiced in Europe to speed up travel to the outer ends of a corridor and its extensions over conventional “classic” lines[. The existing railways are] hemmed in with development and limited by 19th Century engineering. Travel distances from bypassed intermediate stations are shorter, so overall travel time still is reasonable.”
High speed service would be rerouted and supplement, not discontinue, ongoing Regional and suburban connecting services on the existing lines.
“It seemed that the service plan omitted the option of local Connecticut shore services paired with both the new high-speed route to Washington, DC, Virginia, and the Carolinas and the existing route via Baltimore to Washington, DC.”
“The increased number of trains with the high-speed services and variations is predicated on new capacity (ARC) through New York City.”
Tunneling from Penn Station or the ARC annex to Grand Central gets nowhere except more congestion with Metro North and CDOT. The least costly hsr solution seems to be to tunnel from Penn Station or the ARC annex to Queens and the under-utilized Hell Gate Bridge. (Beside, it’s a wonderful view!) Maybe the existing Metro-North row to Westchester County could be upgraded for hsr with reduced curvature, full grade separation, and segregated high-speed tracks before striking out across country to Hartford, CN and either Providence, RI or Route 128 (MA).
"The Long Island options were interesting but problematic with respect to both capacity and infrastructure. A long tunnel under Long Island Sound would be extremely costly and have the same safety access and egress concerns as other long tunnels. Furthermore, the
This, along with some other activity, like Amtrak’s fleet plan and proposed car orders show that Amtrak has finally awoken from a long slumber and is at least thinking and planning a future.
The bad news:
Amtrak seems to have awoken in fantasy land where money can rain from the sky for the asking and the connection between the planned activity and their mission seems almost accidental.
Some thoughts:
The study at least identified the problem and laid out a very, very big and ambitious plan. If “do nothing” is one extreme and this is the other, perhaps there are a whole host of bits and pieces and incremental improvements that can be made. Perhaps the way to “eat the elephant” is a little bit at a time - tastiest bits first. And, maybe you don’t ever eat the “hoofs and tail”.
Since Gov Christie in NJ is about to kill the ARC, perhaps it’s an opportunity to do something better that integrates the interests of Amtrak, NJT and the LIRR. The “unbundling” of the PRR into NJT, Amtrak and Conrail certainly had some negative consequences as each tries to optimize their own interests which can sub-optimize the whole.
Much of the proposed lines would run on old, government owned, roadbeds that have been converted to “Rail Trails” or abandon and overgrown. Then you have the following along side of Interstate Highways and or down the medium of an Interstate. The money is in the Bridges, Tunnels, and Train Sets.
As far as I remember, the GCT - New Haven line is completely grade separated, without any road grade crossings. The conflicting moves at “Shell” Tower, New Rochelle, could best be solved by flyovers east of the station, where land from the old coach yard and engine terminal still is in Metor North’s possession, and this would involve intensive use of all five tracks at New Rochelle, with the old fifth track, the track built for the Harlem River Shuttle, in full use. But straightening out the cuvery New Rochelle - New Haven line would be very difficult, because it runs mostly through built-up areas Even widening track centers to allow full use of tilting equipment would be difficult, but would be doable.
“PepsiCo is a world leader in convenient snacks, foods and beverages with revenues of more than $60 billion and over 285,000 employees.”
Also found in a Google search :
About 500 soft drinks companies operate in the U.S. Annual sales of refreshments total approximately US $88 billion, of which three quarters are soft drink…
For me, the real context is illustrated by a photo in a recent Trains showing the Heartland Fyler dwarfed by an auto rack train. Our economy as well as our souls are driven by automobiles, and even a minor change will require a large initial investment.