$3000 for a Bedroom, $1500 for a roomette. Raise the coach seat to $350 each way.
I am sure there are from an Amtrak perspective but I thought we were talking about replacing Amtrak with a privately run diner.
Yes, but even McDonalds has had issues with sanitation of the dispenser heads, they need to be cleaned per strict rules. Also, you need CO2 tanks and carbonators to supply the water. I doubt that Ed Ellis uses syrup on his cars.
I have read only a few of the most recent posts in this thread, and have not seen the video. It’s almost an hour long, and I was assuming it wouldn’t be of much interest to me. The idea that a new non Amtrak startup would be a COST-EFFECTIVE success doesn’t seem likely, and the argument is tiresome to me. It’s not tiresome to CMStPnP. I’ve been avoiding this conversation because we’ve plowed this ground before. In the past, not much that I’ve said has ever had a whole lot of impact on CMStPnP’s thinking, so I’m not so confident that it will be any different this time 'round. But my name was brought up, and I guess there is some sentiment saying I ought to chime in. So I’ll catch up some time soon and see the video.
For those who don’t know, I retired from Amtrak onboard service a little over two years ago with a little over 26 years of service, in sleeping car and coach service, as well as food service (which is always implied, no matter what onboard service job you’re doing). I understand CMStPnP has experience in some sort of stationary food service outlet.
I’ve read his comments about the need for soda machines instead of cans. Of all the serious problems Amtrak faces with regard to food service, it is utterly ridiculous to suggest that this will help; and it is utterly ridiculous to suggest that a new non Amtrak startup would benefit any more. A soda machine requires maintenance and cleaning. It represents a significant investment and is subject to enroute mechanical failures, which might not be repairable until servicing at the next terminal. It requires occasional replenishment with syrup and soda water, which must be stored in cars with limited storage space. It requires a floor drain, so it can’t be installed just anywhere in a railroad car. It requires frequent cleaning to FDA standards, which isn’t always easy to accomplish enroute. On the other hand, canned soda requires nothing but refrigeration, which the c
And you think there is anything beyond a small, niche market for trains charging that?
Passenger trains shouldn’t have to make money today. They rarely did back in the day, before cars, buses and planes.
Those cars, buses and planes don’t make money, either. We indulge and spend lots and lots of taxpayer dollars on them because people want and use them.
Should be no problem with passenger trains – suburban, corridor and LD – as long as they are well patronized. What if we applied profit as the survival test of METRA, the Sounders, the Corridor?
It only requires regular water to which syrup is added, the carbonation comes out of a pressurized tank, all three are combined at the dispenser. Combined the syrup and pressurized tank would cut on board storage requirements vs canned soda by at least 2/3 if not more.
Further, I always get luke warm soda can on Amtrak with a cup of Ice. Sometimes the snack bar refrigerates but not a lot a large reserve so back to Luke Warm when they run out of the refrigerated stuff. Maybe it is the Texas Eagle route vs. Auto-Train.
How the hell would I know? I am just throwing it out there because you were complaining the price was too low and DaveKeeper was adding services and car refurbishment at a highly unfunded rate.
See and now your upset again and why? Because you listened to Schlimm and he wanted you to comment…so blame him.
The thread is on Privately run passenger trains and we delved into the hypothetical privately run operation. Sorry but Mr. Ellis a former Amtrak VP disagrees with you on several points regarding onboard services if you watched his video. And now he is competing with your former employer for corridor services, so that should give you pause. That does not necessarily make him wrong but of a different opinion.
Likewise I am pretty confident we will see Brightline clean the floor with Amtrak’s onboard food service theories when it rolls out it’s Bistro Car to the public. Definitely a diifference between private and public sector thinking. It’s the difference between the thinking of “we have to make a profit” and “we will never make a profit so why bother”. We’ll see but I fully expect Amtrak is going to be surprised in more than one area with Brightline when it comes to corridor services.
In the case of airlines, you are spouting utter nonsense:
- American Airlines. Second quarter 2016 pre-tax profit of $1.5 billion, or $1.6 billion excluding special charges, and net profit of$950 million, or $1.0 billion excluding special charges
- Excluding special items, UAL reported second-quarter net income of $863 million, and pre-tax earnings of $1.4 billion.
- Delta Air Lines Announces June Quarter Profit June 2016 quarter GAAP pre-tax income of $2.4 billion, adjusted pre-tax income1 of $1.7 billion
Your both actually right. I would point out that Airline profitability is a function of the price of oil all other things on the side. Further the profits your pointing to do not include the absolute full costs of delivering the service. Airlines are subsidized in part by the DoD (troop fleet), Congress (flights to underserved airports), as well as Airport bonding and never having to pay taxes on terminals, there is more. Just add up the direct airline subsidies and you exceed annually the subsidy to Amtrak.
Remember that if you argue that airlines pay the full cost of their terminals, a claim I find really a stretch. They still get a huge subsidy on bonding for airport construction in that the much, much lower interest rate and higher credit of the local taxing authority is used instead of the much higher and much lower credit of the airline to build the terminal.
The problem with some posters here is they want a cordon bleu dining experience on Amtrak at sandwich shop prices. I mentioned ACY because he knows what he is talking about from first-hand experience. I do not nor do you (about onboard food service).
Amtrak undercharges (below the operating cost) for both sleepers and food service on its LD trains except for ACY’s Auto Train. As to Ellis, his little Pullman experiment tacked onto the City of New Orleans was a failure, so his expertise seems of dubious value.
All that might be correct BUT if ACY was 100% correct, his former employer would not be facing increasing competition on corridor services…would it? I mean if everyone was following the Amtrak model on corridor services what would be the point of these new companies being formed?
As to long distance trains, nobody has Amtraks power or authority yet to run them, once that playing field is level. We’ll see if there are no entrants to the field to compete with Amtrak. The Pullman experiment was interesting and given the former American Orient Express I kind of had a hunch it might fail.
However, Ellis was stuck on the Amtrak Schedule and stops #1 because he choose the tack on approach. #2 Ellis really did not capitally invest in those cars a whole lot beyond the paint scheme. He basically bought private cars from AAPRCO stock and marginally invested in them. #3 Although he charged more for his service, he did not have add-ons that we see with Rocky Mountaineer such as extended city stays, hotel deals, carry the luggage from the train to hotel service. So his onboard services were basically Amtrak levels, his schedule was basically Amtrak, to which he was adding a premium to ride in a private car.
And how much is all that? $50-100 million? Airlines also pay some federal income taxes and local property taxes (not airports), unlike Amtrak which pays zero.
How much are the airlines paying for the Air Traffic Control System?
CMStPnP:
Now you’re accusing me of being upset with you. I’m not particularly, because I’m confident that there’s not much to your arguments. You have completely ignored my reasons for believing cans are more sensible on a train than cumbersome, labor intensive, maintenance-needing machines that must be refilled, cleaned, serviced, and provided with electric power and floor drains. You also admit it requires a pressurized tank. Just one more potential problem in the event of a derailment, if you ask me. You and I aren’t likely to find common ground because you have consistently refused to address the practical issues in the past, and you’re doing it again.
I’ve been told by others, through implication if not directly, that I wouldn’t have spent a career in passenger service if I had the intelligence and ability to do something else. Maybe you don’t believe me because that’s what you think. Well, I can’t be responsible for your unwillingness to accept the shocking notion that I might have a brain. You’re determined not to believe I have anything valuable to contribute, so how about you just stop reading posts when you see they’re from me?
You say I’m upset with you. On the contrary, I think you’re upset with me and the notion that I might actually have a clue about the realities of working on the train, where I believe you have admitted you never did.
Tom
Electric Power is not needed either unless you have a huge display sign. The pressure from the carbon dixiode sucks the syrup out. Water pressure from a regular water line is enough to move the water. It’s still just the syrup and the Carbon Dixode…heh.
The water drain is already in place in the upper level of the Superliner Lounge and I am pretty sure there is a carbonated beverage dispenser in place as well but I will double check on my Christmas trip home with the crews help if they have time.
Our GOP friends want to privatize it. Happy?
I’m not going to spend a lot of time looking it up but I have figures for 2005, it is a payment in kind program. Government guarantees business in revenue in exchange for members having their fleet available on 24-48 hours notice.
In 2005 the guaranteed portion was $418 million across the Airline Industry but they actually paid out $1.5 Billion above that amount. So total in 2005 was $1.9 Billion approx just for the Military Civil Airline Fleet Allocation. Interesting Amtrak has no such arrangement with DoD or FEMA even though FEMA has used Amtrak for evacuations.
Essential Air Service Subsidy for 2014 = $241 million however it was on a upward trend year over year so for 2016 it is probably higher.
Property taxes for railroads are exceedingly complex. Though my argument would be that as a tenant Amtrak should be paying a portion of the Property Taxes of the Host Railroad…look at the complex tax analysis that BNSF did for New Mexico on the Raton Pass line…Hoooollllllyyyyyy Crap!!! Who thought up the NM taxation approach??? (lol). Unbelieveable.
https://www.codot.gov/about/southwest-chief-commission/nmdot-bnsf-property-tax-analysis
For now – with a lot of input from the taxpayer. The real story is told by the lousy stock prices; by the many trips to bankruptcy court and the folded lines; and by somebody’s finding that, from the beginnings of commercial flight, the industry hasn’t made a red cent, even with the ongoing public help.
The point is that the railroads’ discovery of generations ago holds true for every transportation mode: You can’t make money hauling people. Not without a lot of that public support.
I continue to argue the case for equal treatment for passenger rail that meets a public pur