I see Caterpillar is demanding EMD manuals be removed from Fallen Flags website. I wonder what’s next, no EMD photos, no EMD models.
It seems like corporations don’t like model railroaders or railfans! Good grief!
Jim
And here’s a link to the letter of said demand: Caterpillar Letter.
Might not be so draconian if a similar deal that was worked out with the model manufactuers and the prototype roads could be agreed upon.
Just another nail in the coffin of Good Will!
Why don´t the big corporations have the ability to see beyond their shortsighted profit hunger…
I mean, anyone out there that have a warm, fuzzy feeling for UP???
This made me realise that I have to recommed my relatives to stop buying and using CAT equipment anymore and only use BM!
Wonder if they realise that their Good Will is taking a serious hit???
(I bet they are oblivious about the way this kind of info spreads!)
Cat has EVERY RIGHT to do what they are doing. It’s their property. I don’t think it’s a good public relations move though. The lawyer’s address is clearly written at the bottom of the letter. Who’s up for a little email flooding by a bunch of irate model railroaders? Tell her how you fell? [}:)]
Historical documents without copyright can NEVER be theirs to do what they want!
But they can do their best to scare people…
I suspect that this is VERY bad. Just see how CAT has exploited their brand!
It makes Disney and H-D look like benevolent companys… I hate to think it, but it could make the UP situation look very insignificant in comparison.
Read the statement on the FallenFlags site… He states that none of the documents he had on the site had copyright on them.
BTW, I sent a message on FB to my relative who owns a big company that uses CAT equipment (big construction and demolition company). And after some discussions where i showed the letter from CAT and the FF site. He said that they had felt that the climate with CAT has been cooling off for the past years, and this made him think twice before he let the CAT salesmen comes to the office next time!
A small step in the right direction…
Darn it , I guess I should have downloaded the manual on the BL-2 and F-3 walking beam load regulators when I had the chance…Oh well , I guess I’ll have to steal one from the Smithsonian. I guess its important to protect sensitive information about 1947 locomotive equipment , never know who might want to spend a ton of money on brass, slate and glass.
I work for a CAT owned company , so I am quite familiar with CAT and the use of their logo’s and other material . What no one here understands is that CAT will let you use their logos and other items if you ask for permission . They are actually pretty easy to get along with as long as you ask them and explain what you are doing with the copyrighted stuff
Fill me on, did he scan those and put them up? Or just link to them? Which begs the question, did they have copyrights? or were they “remove” to be internet-friendly? How many times have we seen RR paintshop pics come up without copyrights?
Jeffrey-Wimberly, thank you for posting the link to the letter. I fired off an email to Ms. Gothard, Corporate Counsel for CAT, asking her client to reconsider their stance. Maybe if more of us did the same, we could convince CAT to change their mind. (Yeah, I know, and maybe Congress will actually act to HELP the country instead just helping themselves). As for me, until they do, I refuse to give any of my money, paid through purchasing anything with their logo on it.
Jeff,
Nice job on getting the letter posted. You always seem to find just the right link to help others on this Forum…thanks.
Wayne
I wonder about all those manuals found at railroad memorabilia meets?
I even seen locomotive manuals at train shows.
Hi,
Well, the situation sure has come a long way since the Santa Fe, NYC, & EMC pitched in bucks and support to the Lionel Corporation in the late '40s so they could build the master molds for EMD F3s.
I’m sure today’s corporations have their reasons for what they allow - or don’t allow - but especially when it comes to “fallen flags”, why should they care?
… and the Queen was not amused!
This is getting ridiculous. It escapes my understanding why any company would allow their counselor to spend endless hours searching hobby web sites for possible copyright infringements and even write silly letters.
Caterpillar is better advised to invest this effort into product design and marketing, instead of waisting the money on issues where there will be no gain for them.
This is a fuzzy area. If Caterpillar owns EMD, they also own all EMD trademarks, and can enforce as they see fit. I remember the Safety Kleen people were pretty strict about the use of their logo on models at one point. The thing is, this material is obsolete and being distributed for free for historical and entertainment value only. But if they want it down, it’s within their rights to ask for it to be removed.
I found the letter linked to above to be very poorly written with several grammatical and punctuation errors. I wouldn’t be surprised if Crystal Gothard (snicker) is a very young and inexperienced member of the Caterpillar legal team.
Just to clarify an earlier point, an item of original authorship – and a manual would qualify – might be protected by copyright without itself bearing a copyright notice. The notice is currently relevant to copyright litigation and damages perhaps but not to the validity of the copyright itself. However if the item was published before January 1, 1978 then it needed a copyright notice to be protected by copyright.
Trademark is another matter as UP as demonstrated to all of us
Dave Nelson
What I think model railroaders seem to forget is that if you look in other industries, they guard their trademarks and brand names pretty strictly. Its standard operating procedure. Think Harley Davidson, Coke, UPS, etc. CAT is a brand name, people buy stuff with CAT on it just as they buy John Deere stuff.
Too much stuff is pirated and they have to establish their rights to their property.
Before everybody piles on CAT has anybody asked them what it would take to display the books etc? It might be a very minimal task or cost.
Legally, Caterpillar can enforce a trademark restriction. What they don’t realize is the free publicity they get by their products constantly being displayed in model form and the negative publicity they receive by such actions.Major corporations and organizations don’t care about bad publicity as evidenced by Ford constantly recalling cars because they explode when they get rear ended (Pinto and Crown Victorias in Police Specs), Walmart stripping municipality coffers, and cities building brand new stadiums despite cutbacks accross the board. Ford is still one of the best selling cars worldwide, Walmart enjoys a constant stream of profits, and stadiums are still being celebrated.We can all email Cat
The bottom line, as long as they are at the top of the profit food chain, who cares what the little guy thinks? It’s all about the Benjamins. Guys like George Elwood who operate their railfan sites at no profit and relying on donations to help support the site (notice the lack of advertisements on the website) do not have the resources to take on companies like Caterpillar in the legal arena. We can all mail their legal team, but the legal team also has delete options in their email. If we are going to email anyone, we should email Caterpillar’s Public Relations Department, the CEO of Caterpillar, and emails of support to George Elwood in case he needs it for legal purposes later on as well as moral support. It’s tough being picked on by bullies.
This brings me to my next point. What happens to models of EMD’s products? Will there be licensing on all models of E&F Units, NWs, SWs, GPs, ans SDs? If model builders have to pay licensing fees due to their profiting from these models, will that drive the cost of a model without DC to prices that are higher than brass?
There’s a difference, though, between using a logo without license and displaying something like an oeprator’s manual. In displaying the oeprator’s manuals, no one is creating or selling somethign with the protected corporate logo. Those books get around because they were given by the box full to the railroads buying the locos.
The whole thing is just silly. EMD didn’t seem to mind, but now Cat buys the rights and suddenly their most important thing is to make sure no one displays 50+ year old operator manuals to the public?
–Randy