I understand that the principal for returning empty cars is back via the roads that handled the loaded car. But what about when there are 2 or more interchanges with the same road? Is the return through the same interchange? For example the Maryland & Pennsylvania RR interchanged with the Pennsylvania RR at York and Baltimore. So could a loaded car delivered to the Ma&Pa in Baltimore be returned empty in York?
Thanks
Paul
Yes it could. The host RR would try to get other RR’s empties off of their line quickly to avoid paying the “per diem” charges. If they had a load going in the general directionof the cars owner, then AAR rules required them to use the visiting car. They could then pass on the per diem charges to the shipper.
John
There were strict interchange rules in force. If the Ma & Pa picked up a PRR box car in York, and delivered it to an on-line industry in Baltimore - Then they ‘should’ deliver it back to the PRR at York. Unless the two railroads have an ‘agreement’ that allows the car to be returned ‘short’. This is part of the logic that everyone who shares in the load profit, also does their fair share returning the car. It is built into the profit model, In this case, I would suspect that the Ma & Pa and the PRR had some kind of agreement on returning cars as the distance was so short. In large areas like Chicago, a yard transfer could eat up more miles that the Ma & Pa is long!
If there were no rules, you could have railroads returning cars ‘short’ and forcing your competitor to haul the empty back for free. Now if the L&N got an SP box and unloaded it in New Orleans, they could return it empty to the SP in New Orleans, or maybe find a load that is heading west on the Santa Fe for LA. Once the Santa Fe unloads it in LA, they are free to return it to the SP right there.
Jim
Usually the instructions was:
When Empty return to B&O via reverse route.
When Empty return to B&O Agent at Columbus,Oh…
When empty return to Westinghouse pool Mansfield,Oh.
When empty return to B&O Chicago.
When empty return to nearest C&O interchange.
There was special instructions that had to be followed.
When empty do not reload.Return to ATSF via reverse route.
when empty return to home shops for repair.
Food service only
Hide service only
The SP had scheduled freight trains just for the purpose of returning empty freight cars to their owners.
You can still see that today…I heard on my scanner that a WB NS train had 22 loads and 27 empties-I didn’t hear the first part of the discussion.
best i can remember, if a car was in assigned service then it went back to the point of loading via reverse route. otherwise it could be given to it’s owner at the nearest junction with that road. generally speaking, any road that did not participate in the revenue movement was not obligated to participate in return of the empty.
bet case scenario in a perfect world, all the loads you originated went into your own equpment and all foreign mty’s went directly home. they whole idea being to have more of your equipment on foreign lines that you had foreign equipment on your line. otherwise you became a “debtor” road.
if you can beg, borrow or steal an older copy of the Railway Equipment Register, (1960’s or 70’s) you can read about car service rules and directives until your eyes bleed.
grizlump
Pretty much in any corridor there may be a predominent flow of loads or empties. Between the Gulf Coast and the Mississippi gateways loads go east/north and empties go west/south. In the Western half of the country most auto loads go west and most auto empties go east. In the doublestack intermodal world, most loads go east and most empties go west. Most south/west grain trains in the midwest are loads and most north/east grain trains are empties.
Its kind of a “chicken and the egg” thing. Does the railroad run the train specifically to move the empties or does the railroad run the train and it just happens to carry empties? From a per diem/car hire perspective it doesn’t make any difference whether the car is loaded or empty, any car going off line costs the same. I know on some western roads the drive was to get the trains with interchange cars to junctions as fast as possible to get the cars off line, regardless if they were loads or empties.
As far as SP in the mid-twentieth century goes, there was a lot more general merchandise being shipped west rather than east. Thus, a lot more empty (mostly box) cars went east.
In March 1953 there were six Eastbound symbol freights going over Donner Pass: (1) R-xxx Roseville Perishable Block, (2) OVE Overland Express, (3) MDSE Merchandise, (4) Drag as well as (5) XAP Empty Auto Parts, and (6) Empties. There were no “empty” Westbound symbol freights.
Thanks everyone for your answers.
Paul
I had asked a similar question some time ago; Jim’s summary is a very useful clarification. For example, imagine a NYC car originating at the NYC and being interchanged with the CB&Q in the Chicago area. It might be that several railroads would be involved with that haul. Yet the CB&Q could in theory return that car to the NYC at tiny little Zearing IL in the middle of nowhere – just about the most remote outpost on the entire NYC system. That would deprive the previous connecting roads of their fair share.
Dave Nelson
I will always remember long blocks of empty DL&W boxs inscribed with " Route of the Phebe Snow" being turned over to the Pennsy at Effener on the state line by the TP&W. Never did I see a west bound DL&W box.