Is the engine number just for the rail road to keep track of there engines or is it a Federal thing so they can keep track of the engines like license plates?
If it is just for the rail roads records, could the number over lap? UP used 4021 for a Big Boy, could Santa Fe all so have a 4021 number engine? Same question on rolling stock questions.
Thanks for the coming answers.
Ken, wondering again.
Ken, present day example, and I looked these up before I posted this, UP has a loco (SD70ACe) numbered 4141 and BNSF has a loco (Dash 9-44CW) numbered 4141.
The numbers are just for the railroad usage Ken, a Big Boy on the UP could have the same number as a 2-8-2 on the Santa Fe for example. Each railroad had their own specific numbering system, sometimes it made sense and sometimes it made no sense.
Mark
OK, now I know and again, the post was moved with out me knowing?
Most larger RR number their locos in a 4digit format which gives them quite a bunch of numbers to use. There are times though that they run out of numbers. In this case they can add a suffix letter (like the UP xxxxY numbers for yard engines. I recently saw something (Southern I think) that had an F suffix. I don’t recall seeing any prefixes to loco numbers…
Numbers get recycled and/or allocated to groups and/or types of locos by a lot of RR. I’m not that up on this but you will often find that a RR will give all its GP35s (for example) numbers withion a group and all its SD45s numbers in another group.
Another variation is that each purchase gets numbered in a group. If the RR buys say ten GP40s they may get a number run. Sometimes a later purchase of GP40s will get the next set of consecutive numbers but other times any purchase in between, maybe a bunch of GEs, will get those numbers. Then the later GP40s will get a later number run. Different roads have different ideas. I’m pretty sure that they change their minds from time to time as well.
Just to keep us confused some roads will allocate a number series to a group of locos / purchase / type of loco and later change their mind… they will then renumber surviving members to another set of numbers or even random numbers to free up the numbers they want. The released numbers will then get used on a bunch of new locos. An example would be for the 60xx series to have been in use on say SD9s and then the company to have started to order SD60s and want to make a fuss about the new locos… any remaining SD9s would tend to get renumbered so that the whole number run would be available to the new locos.
When roads merge or are taken over the can be duplicatioons of numbers. This can be why patch jobs happen in a hurry.
Something that seems to h
I usually receive an e mail when I put a post in the wrong place… It seems that the mods are trying to sort the material out a bit more effectively - which is fine by me… I just don’t always know which place to put the thread in when I start… I think that sometiomes I’m trying to ask an open/general question and they take it as more specific and about prototype and other times it happens the other way round.
I guess that we’re just not being bad enough to keep them busy sorting us out for other reasons [(-D]
I do appreciate the work they do though… and the time they put into it. [tup][tup][tup]
[:P]
The railroads assign locomotive and car numbers in disregard of other railroads. Also, it is not unusual that a railroad reuse numbers of retired equipment, so a particular railroad might have had two or more locomotives or cars with the same numbers, but not at the same time.
Builder-assigned numbers would be unique.
Railroads use both the owner’s abbreviation and loco/car number for tracking individuals.
Mark
Ken,
The railroad can ‘number’ their engine anything they want. However, the is a FRA rule that mandates that the engine number must be on the side of the engine. Here is part of the rule from the Utah Rails web site. That site has lots of information:
http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/AddPost.aspx?ReplyToPostID=1951046&Quote=False
Federal Railroad Administration Rules
49 CFR = Code of Federal Regulations, Title 49, Transportation (Department of Transportation). Chapter II concerns the Federal Railroad Administration.)
Part 229, Railroad Locomotive Safety Standards.
Part 231, Railroad Safety Appliance Standards
The letter ‘F’ shall be legibly shown on each side of every locomotive near the end which for identification purposes will be known as the front end. (49 CFR 229.11, paragraph a)
The locomotive number shall be displayed in clearly legible numbers on each side of each locomotive. (49 CFR 229.11, paragraph b)
(Note that there is no mention of requiring a railroad name to be shown, just the number.)
Jim
Purely for the RR’s use. They can change the numbers at will. Pre-computer days railroads even had cars and engines with the same number (engine ABC 1234 and boxcar ABC 1234). Each railroad sets its own numbers so it doesn’t matter if they repeat numbers.
Same for rolling stock.
An extreme example that confused me so much I did ask a similar question some month ago is the Indiana Railroad.
When the Indiana railroad has been founded they were very short on budget. They bought some used CF-7 from AT&AF. They did not even put a drop of paint on those units. They ran in full AT&SF colors and their old AT&SF road numbers. No patches, no nothing.
If you were to look really closely, there probably was a small stencil showing the owning railroad’s reporting marks. They might only be an inch or two high, but legally that is what shows who owns the engine. The paintscheme and big railroad name etc. is just window dressing. If say BNSF bought a used UP engine, they might leave it as is but add a small “BNSF” stencil indicating who owned it now. Eventually they’d probably do more, but that would be enough to allow them to run it on trains.
The current Classic Trains points out that there was a situation of two railroads that were interlocked and often leased engines back and forth who set up a system where on one railroad the engine’s numbers started with an odd number, and the other railroad’s all started with even numbers. That way, they didn’t have to worry about confusion in train orders etc. of having two engines with the same road number out on different trains. Other than a rare situation like that, railroads just numbered engines however they pleased.
Actually IRR did repaint and renumbered 2 of their CF7s #200 and 201 .
Dave,
North American locomotives don’t have alpha prefixes, but Japanese locomotives do - and in Roman characters, no less. Steam used a single letter, corresponding to the number of drive axles. Non-steam prefixes that with a D for diesel or E for electric. The first two numeric digits specified the speed range and specific class, then the locos within that class were numbered sequentially starting with the third digit. yes, D511104 was the 1104th 2-8-2 completed to that particular design - and not the last.
For many years, ‘AT&SF’ was lettered on the cab side in small print, and the number was painted in the center of the tender side in characters a yard high. Toward the end of the steam era, ‘SANTA FE’ was lettered near the top of the bunker in block letters about half the size of the loco number.
Some railroads (N&W, UP, ATSF…) used numbers in ‘blocks’ for classes of locomotives. Others scrambled numbers with wild abandon. I had one friend who said (facetiously) that the steam-era PRR kept all their unassigned numbers in a fishbowl, and just grabbed one at random when Altoona finished building a new locomotive. Numbers from scrapped or otherwise ‘retired’ locos went back into the fishbowl…
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
That is what I did expect but I did not find any photo with at least a small identification of the new owner. So I brought it up in a forum some month ago (don’t remember which one) and got conformation that they did run the engines without any new markings. The explanation was that it is ok if they stay on their own tracks only.
However, I would be glad if you have a photo of an INRD CF-7 in full AT&SF colors with the old road number but a small marking of the real owner. Because that is what I expected too.
And yes, Larry, you are right. They did repaint at least two of them later on. But that was not the point I tried to make in this thread.
The only time the markings would be confusing is if the engine is interchanged to another railroad or back to the ATSF. If the engines were confined to the Indiana Railroad and were never interchanged, then it wouldn’t make any operational difference what the paint scheme was.
The Federal requirement for a number isn’t to register the engine with anybody, its to identify the engine for purposes of granting authority. Authority is granted to and trains are identified by their engine number (asn in Extra 1234 West or ATSF 2345 East). The purpose is to clearly mark the engine so trains and other employees can visually determine which train is which for purposes of authority. If a train is given a warrant to proceed from A to B after the arrival of ATSF 2345 East at A, they have to be able to see and identify the engine ATSF 2345.
So as long as the crews and workers can identify the engines on the Indiana Railroad uniquely, it doesn’t matter what they are painted. The only one who might car if the engine isn’t painted is the BNSF (so people don’t associate what the Indianna does with their corporation) or the management of the Indiana (since the engine doesn’t reflect their corporate presence either).
Dave You’re moving over from the bean counters and maintenance men to operations here aren’t you? The authority you’re refering to would be Train Orders and other track occupancy rules wouldn’t it? That’s a whole different - and relevent - bunch of stuff.
Would you elaborate please?
[:P]
Not sure what you want elaboration on.
Other than regular scheduled trains, who get their authority to operate from a timetable schedule, all other trains and engines are identified by engine number and all “official” communication that deals with the authority on the main track or the safe movement of the train uses the engine number. So train orders or track warrants are addressed to “Extra 1234 west” or " ATSF 2345 East". If I want to tell a train to pick up 5 cars I can tell the MHONP-12 to pick up 5 cars, but if I am telling it about a slow order or getting movement information, I address it as ATSF 2345 East.
So a railroad can’t have two engines with the same initials and number, that way there can be no confusion on which train has which authority. Two engines can have the same number and different initials or the same initials and different numbers, but not the same initials and numbers (this includes the A-B-C-D identifiers on some units).
what’s the big deal about this? i have a bunch of freight cars with the same number.
grizlump (lazy)
Which would never happen in real life because if you had two cars with the same reporting mark and number there’s no way to know which one has your cargo of newspaper and which one has my cargo of aluminum molds. Customers would be kindof upset if the railroad can’t deliver the right car.
With a model railroad you’re not actually delivering real freight so it’s no so bad, but it you’re doing any sort of actual operations simulation, you might want to be able to track those 15 identical cars separately somehow.
Also like Dave H. mentioned, engine numbers are used in identifying trains for the purposes of authority, so you absolutely cannot have two engines with the same reporting marks and numbers. (eg: CN 1234 East pass CN 1234 East at Whoville - um, what?)
UP’s yard engine numbers are actually using a separate reporting mark (UPY) to free up space in their numbering. The Y is not a suffix on the number but it’s there to make it clear that the engine is using the UPY marks.
See:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4048/4404615157_5e3d52710c_o.jpg
The “Y” in the numberboard is because of the UPY reporting marks visible above the number on the cab.