On a post you closed because of a few whiney people. Lets examine your statement If we use your logic then ( as i clearly pointed out in my post ) your saying and i qoute that if you buy your ticket that you assume that their is a trained competent person operating the train plain bus etc… then how do you think someone will ever be trained to do these services. amtrak trains it engineers they never ran a passenger train before, a pilot never flew before and had to start somewhere and auto pilot is not my answer either. and truck drivers getting cdl had to start somewhere, No training and operating this equipment. Now the differance is this was a passenger? if so the engineer was still there in control. still no harm no foul was it right clearly no, but it still was not reckless and hence no charges of such should even be brought up.
So using your logic Selector how do you train men and woman to do the jobs of today if they ( in your words) are not certified to operate the equipment?
I edited the title, as I felt this thread should not focus on one poster’s disagreement with the moderator (Selector in this case). This thread is a continuation of the locked thread. That thread was locked due to a lack civility. Let’s try to do better on this one. Focus on the topic of discussion please.
Your right when, to use your words, “Amtrak trains its Engineers”, so do commuter railroads.
They attend classes, learn about locomotives, learn and understand the Railroad’s, State’s, and Local Government’s, Safety Rules. Learn and tested on the railroad’s “General Orders”. Review the line he/she will be operating on, every hill, curve, station and grade crossing. All this before climbing into a cab.
Ride the “Fireman’s seat” to see how it is done in the real world. Then to drive a locomotive, an instructor qualified engineer hovering behind you calling out your next move before you have to make it and what control to use. Then to get the Engineers License. Now you can carry passengers.
That’s not the end, re-tested each year (on Amtrak), two years on some Commuter Railroads or if you change to another route.
Sounds like Driving Without a License (FED) Unauthorized Person in Cab (State owned Railroad) Failure to Drive Locomotive, turning over control to an unlicensed, unauthorized, person. (Railroad Rules)
I, personally, do not feel the Long Island passengers were in any danger. The Licensed Engineer was standing next to or behind the passenger/operator. Hopefully the train was under one of the Automatic Train Control systems. I would also hope the train was equiped with “Black Boxes”, that would detect anything done inproperly.
Selector put it down about as intelligently as it could be. If you as a passenger buy a ticket you’re assuming that the person operating the conveyance is properly trained and capable of performing his or her task in a safe manner.
The training scenario is a special case…in such case the trainee has already gone through some training and screening prior to taking control of the locomotive under strict supervised conditions. In any event, I don’t believe that train engineers, bus driver, pilots etc have sole descretion over who may take over at the controls. That decision would involve someone in a management capacity with disclosure to the insurance company as well as others who have a stake in the risks involved.
Thanks, Ulrich. You are correct. People understand that trainees will necessarily be at the controls under strict supervision. They don’t anticipate that engineer’s friend Bill will be allowed to take the controls merely at Bill’s insistance or his request and then only because they are friends. There is no duty to train, nor liability implied in the consent offered by the passengers, when Bill begins to move the trains. Niether has Engineer Bob secured permission or a notice of acceptance of liability for anything Bill or Bob might screw up, no matter how well-intentioned.
I can’t make it more simple, nor more logical. You either accept that people who put their lives in the hands of a public conveyance system are deemed to have given informed consent, or you are of the mind that what people don’t know doesn’t hurt them. In the military leadership schools, where we train officers who are granted a commission, the People repose especial trust in the courage, loyalty, and integrity of those officers. There is no integrity in a system that routinely permits passengers to be driven from point to point by non-employees and effects to keep it from public knowledge.
I will also add that in my initial reply to the earlier (now locked) thread, I did not (as I was accused of doing) put anybody, “in front of a firing squad and pull the trigger” (spelling corrected). I clearly stated, “if proven in court”. We can keep things a tad more civil here if people would take the time to read posts completely before taking offense and attacking others.
As a point of comparison with something that’s even more critical -
Think about the situation of doctors, nurses, technicians, and other medical professionals and personnel. For some reason - such as there are many teaching hospitals and the like around here - whenever one of us is in for a medical procedure, chances are we’re going to encounter a ‘student’ of some type - doing anything from taking the history to doing a poke to inserting the IV or doing the morning rounds or even some part of the surgery or procedure. It’s always disclosed, we’re always told that the ‘professor’ or ‘teacher’ or ‘senior instructor’ will be right there, are asked if we’re willing to let them do that, and that we can withdraw that consent at any time, etc.
FWIW, I always let the students go ahead. Everybody’s grateful - I too was a student once . . . no, several times, and - How else are they gonna learn ? Plus, they do seem have more interest and take better care of us than the ‘regular’ staff who have a larger and more intense patient load and duties, etc.
As a matter of fact NO!!! But it seems that you dont want to accept the obvious and being it is your web site to run its your rules. I can accept that and with that i am done with this thread,
What about those of us who come to a web based discussion forum expecting to find seasoned, even-handed, and objective moderation only to find cavalier kneejerk favoritism bowing to a handful of chronic whiners who (apparently) can’t bear to even view opinion that challenges their own fantasy world? [8D]
I guarantee that there will never be a pilot who never flew before, trainee or otherwise, at the controls of a revenue commercial or scheduled carrier flight.
When the pilot does take his/her first flights he will be in an aircraft equipped with two complete sets of controls, one of which is manned by a licensed flight instructor and without passengers.
I can only assume that railroads are similarly conscientious.
That’s what I expect - to find seasoned, even-handed, and objective posts by people who have experience in the business. I also expect to see questions by folks who don’t know, answers ranging from right to wrong, and opinions pro and con.
I don’t think I’m a chronic whiner, but I expect to have my opinions respected, even if they’re wrong. And if they’re wrong, tell me why - don’t just tell me I have no clue what I’m talking about. I’m here to learn, too - you can help straighten me out, or maybe I can help you expand your knowledge in an area you aren’t familiar with by doing the same for you.
It’s a shame that there are some subjects besides politics and religion that we can’t discuss here. When we’ve done so in the past, we’ve sometimes gotten some unique insight. More often, though, sides are taken and things get ugly.
And sometimes we get surprised with who’s on which side of the argument…
Nope, no trainer locomotives with two control stands…but when a guy starts out running a motor, he is watched like a hawk by the trainer.
Count on this, I could teach just about anyone here how to run a locomotive in about ten minutes…now, how to manage a train behind that locomotive is something else.
Knowing engineers, I would be surprised if the person who was at the throttle was a complete rookie…I dont know of any engineer who would risk that…but I know that most of them would let someone they felt or knew could handle it run for a while, and most likely stood right behind him to make sure it was done safely.
Not to condone this paticular instance, passengers are beyond value when compared to freight, but I would suspect the person running had some time in the right hand seat already, else the engineer would not have let him there.
I have found that out of all railroad oriented forums the Trains and Classic Trains are the most even handed. I like honest questions, honest answers, respect for truth and differences. When intolerance shows its nasty head in the form of name calling, personal attacks, innuendo and outright attacks on political, religious, or other philsophically differeng views, or other statements not addressing the discussion, is when I blow the whistle (and try not to blow my top, which I have on occasion). Railfans have their favorite railroads, locomotives, colors, cars, geographical regions at the start of a long list and they will rightly justify themselves for those feelings. Sometimes its facts, sometimes its opinions about something. It is a fantasy world for some fans, a real world for many as fans and as employees. Some play the devils advocate to get a discussion going or draw some facts or feelings out. Some are sarcastic. Some have more than college degrees, some never finished high school, some are still in grade school here. Some have never read Trains Magazine, or anyother magainze or a book on railroading, others have every copy since Vol 1#1 and a library to embarrass a university. Some are modelers, some are photographers or videographers; and that’s as far as thier interests go on the subject of trains and railroading. Others are out there riding or otherwise experiencing the subject; some have been around the subject for, well, forever. Some are professional on the ground railroad
What about those of us who come to a web based discussion forum expecting to find seasoned, even-handed, and objective moderation only to find cavalier kneejerk favoritism bowing to a handful of chronic whiners who (apparently) can’t bear to even view opinion that challenges their own fantasy world?
Being only human, we (volunteer) moderators do the best we can, to keep the peace. We have a set of guidelines, outlined to all users when they joined. Beyond that, our goal is to keep it civil, and see that eveyone plays well together.
No matter what decision we make, I presume that half the posters think we were right, half think we were wrong. It’s pretty much a thankless task. We’re not perfect, but givin that this is a free message board forum, I’ll guess that you’re gettting what you pay for.
A lot of people must think the moderators prowl the forums, looking for people to hassle. The truth is, other than the trolls that post the vulgar language, we don’t really see much to moderate until…someone hits the report abuse button. You see, most of the moderation on the forum is based on the users. A lot of people who have never used the report abuse button will try to convince fellow posters to be civil and keep on track. In the end, it is the users, who determine what is a
Being only human, we (volunteer) moderators do the best we can, to keep the peace. We have a set of guidelines, outlined to all users when they joined. Beyond that, our goal is to keep it civil, and see that eveyone plays well together.
No matter what decision we make, I presume that half the posters think we were right, half think we were wrong. It’s pretty much a thankless task. We’re not perfect, but givin that this is a free message board forum, I’ll guess that you’re gettting what you pay for.
A lot of people must think the moderators prowl the forums, looking for people to hassle. The truth is, other than the trolls that post the vulgar language, we don’t really see much to moderate until…someone hits the report abuse button. You see, most of the moderation on the forum is based on the users. A lot of people who have never used the report abuse button will try to convince fellow posters to be civil and keep on track. In the end, i
At risk of getting this thread locked - the topic being discussed here is little different than graffiti and hoboes. In all three cases something is done which is patently illegal. The Trains folks don’t want them discussed for fear of encouraging such behavior. Considering the wide audience the forum has, that is something of a valid concern. It doesn’t help that there are usually apologists who insist that even though it’s illegal, it’s still pretty cool. Neither side is willing to accept the view of the other, and then the fun begins.
I don’t know any way to avoid it, other than to prevent it from coming up in the first place. It’s been proven over and over that it’s virtually impossible to have a civil conversation about these topics, even though there are definitely things that could be shared/learned.
But they seem to fall into the same realm as religion and politics, which, as we all know, one does not discuss in polite company.
I am wondering why you think the trains folks dont want to invite such behavior, In my thinking it is the engineer who risk his job when he ask someone to sit behind the throttle or even climb aboard to look around, when i have allowed people up on the engine it was done with the conductors knowledge and consent knowing he could get in trouble also. or He would go to the rear unit and pretend to be using the Head.
None of these actions are knee jerk actions and the crew is responsible for there actions and invites. I do see where the other side is going wild thinking that they was put at risk and the sky is falling, but that is only because they dont know or do
