Hello again. About three weeks ago I brought up the question as to why a given engine responds differently with different transformers. At that time I remarked on the differences in smoke output. Last night I got out my Lionel FT with railsounds from the New York Central Limited set of about four or five years ago. When I started running it on my small 027 layout another example of the “engines and transformers” question, one that I had forgotton about, came to light. The layout, although only 3.5 by 6 feet has six Lionel electric switches powered from the track. At first I had a CW80 connected to the layout and when the engine was running at a reasonable speed, there was not enough “energy” , for lack of a better word, to activate the switches fully. In fact they barely moved. I then hooked up a 1033 and with the engine running at basically the same speed the switches snapped back and forth just as you would expect them to. My question is not about the switches but about the engine and transformer. It seems clear that the engine and switches are using the “energy” provided by each transformer differently and I’m wondering what it might be about each transformer that makes this the case. I would appreciate any help you can give in answering this question.
Pure sine wave in the 1033 vs. chopped sine wave in the CW-80?
In english,I think that means the design of the 1033 gives it more useful watts for power.
Has nothing to do with it.
If you are using a CW-80 for accessory power the transformer is adjustable for output but you must have the instruction manuel from Lionel on how to adjust the CW-80’s accessory output. At least that is what I have heard from people at hobby shops here in south FL.
Lee F.
Hi. The CW80 was used only for track power. Accessories are run from another transformer. It seems to me, if I remember correctly, that a similar thing happened with a K-line 100 or 120 watt transformer that came with a starter set, i.e. with the engine running at a good speed, the switches would not activate. I no longer have the transformer so I can’t double check.
Depends what type of switch you are using as to what voltage it can safely take. The old post war 022’s for O gauge track need about 17 to 19 volts for the soleniod to work right, don’t know for sure about other switches.
I power my switches from another transformer entirely, but I am not using Lionel switches either.
Lee F.
You may be exceeding the 5 amp limitation on the CW-80. When the CW-80 reaches 5 amps of output it goes into ‘foldback’, and reduces the output of the transformer. The green light will flash. Is this happening?
The 1033 is capable of 60 watts of continuous power at 5 amps, and includes a circuit breaker that trips with a short. The set screw on top of the circuit breaker adjusts the speed of the disconnect, and is capable of increasing carrying capacity up to 2 additional amps.
Sorry, I don’t have an ammeter to measure what I’m running at.
Kurt
Coaldust, you said that the turnouts were being powered from the track; so both train and turnouts are seeing the same voltage, as I understand it.
Older transformers are true transformers and put out sinusoidal voltage waveforms. You can describe such a waveform in various ways, for example, the peak instantaneous voltage, the peak-to-peak voltage, the average of the absolute value of the voltage, and the square-root of the average of the square of the voltage, which is usually what is meant and is called for short the RMS voltage.
The CW80 is not a simple straightforward transformer. It uses what is called phase control to vary the speed of the train. (“Chopping” is strictly speaking something else.) In phase control, a sinusoidal waveform (20 volts RMS in the case of the CW80) is switched on part-way through each half cycle and kept on to the end of that half cycle.
Different electrical loads respond to different aspects of the voltage. The solenoids in turnouts, the series-wound universal motors in traditional locomotives, and the permanent-magnet DC “can” motors, with who-knows-exactly-what electronics between them and the track, can reasonably be expected to respond differently to these very different waveforms.
Thanks to all who have responded and especially to you, Bob. Your explanation helps a lot.
And there you have it…[:-^]
You were still wrong. Read the guy’s transformer makeup. You will learn, some of the books you read are not right on. Book sence does not always make good sence.
?
Hello Bob:
I usually find your explanations to be helpful and educational. This one, unfortunately, didn’t. Should the CW80 be able to power the engine and the switches? Or not?
Regards,
John
Hello johnandjulie 13. It is not really a question of whether or not the CW80 can do both. The situation is that the FT runs at a reasonable speed with such a low voltage setting on the CW80 that there is not enough to activate the switches. If I run a postwar steam loco like the 2025 using the CW80, I have to use a higher voltage setting to get a reasonable speed and as a result the switches work properly. If I were to use this same setting with the FT, it would fly off into space.
Hello Coldust:
But your situation is very intriguing. Why will it work with one transformer and not the other? Should it work? The CW80 has been a quirky transformer since the time it was introduced by Lionel. Is this behavior normal? Bob’s responses are usually a little more definitive, however, he may not have enough information to give a better response.
Regards,
John
That’s exactly it, John. Analyzing the responses of different locomotive electrical and mechanical designs to the voltage amplitude and waveform is an extremely complicated problem. Even if I had a complete definition of the designs of the locomotives, turnouts, and transformers, I wouldn’t have the time or energy to do it. So all I can say is that these designs can be so different that there is ample justification for what Coaldust observed.
Thanks Bob. Given all of the issues that the CW80 has exhibited it seems like one should just stay away from this unit.
Regards,
John
Yes, and what I was getting at was the first responce was not related to the question.
Hi. It’s me again. I am happy with Bob’s responses as far as explaining what might be going on. To clarify one issue, though, and in response to John’s thoughts, I decided to hook up one of my Z1000’s to the layout and see how the same Lionel FT responded. The engine is not command control so I have to run it through the Z-controller. The engine and turnouts responded basically the same as with the CW80, i.e. with the engine running at a reasonable speed, the switches moved only sluggishly: perhaps slightly better but not much. So I don’t think it is the CW80 per se that is at the root of the situation. Also I realize that if I gave the engine a good load to pull, I would have to increase the voltage to run at the same speed and the switches would respond as they should. But again my original query is as to why the same track and engine setup responds so differently to different transformers and I feel Bob has helped me to a better understanding. Thanks.