I know that my “what if’s” aren’t very popular, an dforgive me if this is the wrong forum.
I am a fan of Mr. Allen’s work, and am not necesarily suggesting changes, but this one has me fascinated. If the Gorre and Daphetid were to be given an expanded timeline (like the V&O did when Mr. McLelland moved it forward) I see two possiblities. Both assume it remains an independent:
The G&D’s management does not relent to dieselization. The 1960s come and go, and the G&D is no longer able to purchase steam. They continue to rebuild theirs as long as possible, and they continue to move freight, but in the end, they are unable to compete and the system is abandoned.
The G&D persist in steam as long as they possibly can, and ultimately become one of the last railroads to diesilize in the 1960s. They operate mucxh like the N&W, purchasing 4 axel roadswitchers painted mandarin red and black with high hoods designated LHF. Management also maintains an extensive fleet of restored steam, and operates regular excursions.
Thoughts on those? How would you envision an extended G&D timeline?
Due to the small customer base the G&D would have folded when highways enter the region just like other short lines and thousands of branch lines was built when small cities and towns cried “gotta have a railroad” did. A lot of these short lines never turn a profit and by the 60s many " go no where" branch lines was abandon daily since any traffic dried up with the coming of highways and trucks…
Now,if the mine continued to work and ship by rail then I suspect the G&D would have been a ghost of its self with no passenger service and powered by 2 or 3 road switcher type locomotives that replaced the costly steam locomotives in the 50s since this move would cut maintenance,operating and labor costs.Remember their is no starry eyed labor and cost intensive steam locomotive lovers among the bean counters…How long G&D would have last would depend on the mine’s continual operation.
On the bright side maybe the G&D would become a steam and early diesel powered tourist railroad with one or two occasional shippers/receivers remaining.
The best part in our model railroading world we can work out our own scenario to justify what may be nearly impossible in the real world…
I think that would make sense, sort of like the Mt Hood Railroad, with its limited lumber traffic and tourist trains. I imagine, based on the road’s steam persona, someone, even a volunteer group, would likely have kept some steam in operation.
My Tug Boat is still floating in the mid 1950s. John Allen was and still is my mentor. My first two layouts, one in 1955 and the second in 1970 were both copies of John’s first 3’7” x 6’8” G&DRR. Both of those layouts were slightly larger on 4’ x 8’ sheets of plywood.
With me the G&D still lives on, the clock on my layout quit running in late 1955. I’ve never given my layout or era a name, the station is named Susanville after we lost our youngest daughter two months before she reached her 21st birthday.
I simply fell in love with John’s G&DRR, for me it is still in full operation. As Larry said, in reality the G&DRR would have eventually gone under. The big guys would have put it at rest with their diesels and the mines would have petered out at some point in time.
My current layout is a mountainous operation and I have several Shays that pull a dozen Shorty Oar cars as well as Shorty loggers both with a bobber caboose. We lived in Southern New Mexico for 20 years so several of my Shay locomotives carry the name of Alamogordo & Sacramento Mountain Railroad along with a half dozen old time Shorty coaches. My logging operation carries the Cloudcroft Logging Company name.
All my newer locomotives (1950s) are Southern Pacific Lines, newest being an EMD E8, several E7s, PA1 & PB1s and early GPs and SDs, all of my diesel fleet are from the 40s & 50s. My steam fle
Yes, it’s doubtful that the G&D could have continued to exist into the modern age. Of course, there’s some doubt as to whether it could have ever operated in any time frame at all, considering its incredibly expensive construction and maintenance costs, compared with its incredibly flimsy traffic base. But that’s never stopped a modeler, has it?
The G&D lived on used and decrepit equipment, and probably could never have afforded to buy new, expensive diesels. So dieselization of freight service might have been accomplished through purchase of second-hand units of various builders and models, from a variety of owners. Price and availability would have been the criteria, rather than efficiency and consistency. I imagine the paint schemes would have reflected various prior owners, with partial repaints (patch jobs) being dominant. I can imagine lots of B-B units, rather than C-C’s, as a concession to the line’s tight curves. It might be cheaper to purchase Alcos rather than EMD’s, but cheaper to operate the EMD’s. I can envision a bunch of Alco RS’s and first generation EMD Geeps, possibly with a few older F-M’s or Baldwins for variety and interest. If second generation units were purchased, they might be old GP30’s, Alco C424’s or GE U25B’s.
Steam power would mostly be the same engines G&D used in its “heyday” (assuming it ever had one). There might be some additions to the steam fleet as engines became available, but these additions would tend to be smaller locos. Steam would be operated only on steam excursions.
The G&D was a work of art, kind of a Disney Land model world in a basement, but it’s kinda hard for me to translate it into the real world, just like it’s kinda hard to translate Disney Land into the real world.
Hard to say but,if there was lots of coal trucks(aka coal bucket) operating in the area probably but,I suspect they would be SHF like the C&O.
Its hard to see down a long hood and there are blind spots as you round a curve and you can only see one side of a road crossing of course the fireman(when diesels still used them) or the head brakeman would watch that side for the engineer.
However.
LHF was far better should lady luck turn her back on you and you hit a coal bucket.
Nice post Larry (forgot to quote your first post to this thread). I think whenever we try to take a railroad that has become defunct (or in this case never existed) and extend it into modern times as if it is still operating, we have to suspend history or even reality in some major way to justify its existance.
In my case, my short line became profitable when a new quarry opened. The rock deposit is in the heart of the valley, with social and environmental advocacy groups oppossing its development since big heavy rock trucks traveling on twisting two lane roads did not mix well with commuters, soccer moms, and school busses, as well as being polluters. When they learned the railroad ran only one half mile from the deposit and a half mile long spur could be built, as well as the quarry’s operation being contingent on the railroad receiving a grant for a new Genset loco, the advocacy groups dropped their opposition.
Perhaps on the G&D, building narrow roads for trucks were never really a viable option, and certainly building new roads into forests today would be difficult, so the railroad continued to operate profitably by using tracks that were aleady there, free from competition (as long as the mine wasn’t depleted).
The G&D could have had a new mine to open or perhaps a paper mill-rolled news print out.How about a brickyard? In koalin clay and sand and outbound loads could be boxcars loaded with brick.
I could justify a G&D railroad well into the 70s and maybe into the early 80s… One would need to think outside the well used model industry box.
Even in its time, the concept of the G&D was not very realistic compared to railroads in the real world. Less so today.
It was a fun fantasy model railroad that helped popularize scenery and weathering, among other things. But since it wasn’t based on realistic parameters to begin, it doesn’t project well into the future – at least not as a realistic model of a railroad.
Looking at my copy of “Model Railroading with John Allen,” it says the concept of the G&D was the mountain division of a larger railroad. If that’s the case, it certainly could’ve survived and modernized since it’s survival doesn’t depend only on local traffic.
I think if you take any modern (real) railroad and just look at certain divisions you’ll find very little on-line industry. Especially on some of the more scenic segments.
Very true that but,big railroads like Rock Island and the Milwaukee road failed to survive…Many once busy main lines are now a side note in the annuals of railroad history.
Could a bigger G&D survive the tides of time or been gobbled up in a merger as a link between the bigger railroads that merged? Possible.
At any rate for a larger G&D to survive into the 80s intact I suspect it would be a trimmed down operation.
I fear you are severely underestimating a modeler’s ability to hammer reality into a basis for a model. There has to be a dozen different ways the G&D could be moved to a modern setting based on real railroads. John Allen himself beat reality with a large enough hammer to make things fit.
I will bet you can come up with a plausible justification for a later G&D. Let us start with a simple question for all to con
I’m referring to the G&D as it was and reality as it is. If you are going to change either one of those substantially, it’s not reality any more – or it’s the G&D in name only.
Modelers do all sorts of imaginative, but unrealistic, things. And more power to them if they wish to – but that doesn’t make it reality.
Which in turn made the G&D fantasy, not a realistic model of a railroad (and makes my point).
I get that some people have a strong emotional attachment to the G&D. But that alone doesn’t mean it was anything resembling reality, then or now.
It would be more like rail to barge then a large freighter making port. Even on the Ohio and Mississippi Rivers rail to barge is very common.
Fantasy will never beat realism–with or without a hammer. G&D was fantasy railroad with beautiful scenery that feature some freight cars that would be rejected by the shipper and for interchange.
The real “wow” factor is the G&D was years ahead of its time when compared to other layouts feature in MR back then.
I’m going to toss in my two cents worth. Just suppose one of the guys living in Gorre was a miner like James Wilson Marshall who discovered gold while constructing a saw mill along the river at Sutter’s Creek in 1849. That kinda changed things in the foothills of California. That could have changed the entire area around the G&DRR to make it one of the largest railroads of the era, just my fantasy.
As I mentioned in my earlier post John was and still is my model railroad hero and mentor. I will always have a bit of his G&DRR on my layout. When you take into account the time period when he built his layout most of his structures, bridges, trestles and rolling stock were scratch built and looked better than Laser Kit stuff available now.
No doubt it was fantasy. I don’t think it was really a Tony Koester approved realistic operation, but, as has been said earlier, I don’t think that that was Mr. Allen’s goal. I think he was just having fun with it. Perhaps we can learn something?
My BFC&BM is completely fictional (exists only in my head, until I bother to model it) and the locomotive and railcars it operates and the extent of its operation would likely never be plausile, but that isn’t stopping me. [;)]