I just heard mention of a possible return of passenger traffic on the Erie Main Line between Port Jervis
and Binghamton NY. Has anyone else?
gregwood - Welcome to trains.com! [C):-)]
Could be interesting - that’s a pretty stretch of track (and includes Starucca Viaduct).
This idea has been brought several times in the past. I’m doubtful that there’s enough demand to support even a minimal service.
Totally no chance. If there is NYC to BInghamton passenger service, surveys, etc. all point to a route via Scranton when (and if?) NJT gets the NJ Cut Off rebuilt and service is introduced to Scranton, Then, and only then, can service to Binghamton be discussed. The old Erie route is owned by NS and leased to CNY (NYSW) from Sparrowbush to Binghamton and to MNRR and operated by NJT from there to Suffern and New Jersey. It is single track, 25mph, over 28 miles longer than via Scranton and offers no real population count which would support passeenger trains. At least that is what the current market and government surveys have shown.
What is the latest on the NJ Cut-Off rebuild. I hear they are laying track to the first station. It seems the big expense will be extensive repair to the Delaware River bridge. Is the money in place, or is Gov. Christie wanting to cancel the project, as with the Hudson River Tunnels?
I am very curious about the cutoff as well, the best source of information I know of is the Wikipedia entry, scroll down about halfway to “efforts to restore rail service” and there are photos of the new track. They are restoring 1/4 of the abandoned right of way right now, 7 miles, with the other 21 miles not yet funded I believe.
Yes, the track is being put in as far as Andover. But I’ve heard there is a snag with a late challenge about a wetland that developed near Roseville Tunnel that has slowed down progress. NJT is doing this section sort of on their own rather than it being part of the conceived Scranton service. The Scranto area authority which is responsible for the proposed service actually owns the Delaware River bridge. Although the EPA gave the project a green light from Port Morris to Scranton, the Federal monies were never released to continue the engineering or anything else. An opposition PA congressman supposedly blocked the money back in the Bush years but there has been no further action since.
I thank all you for your input. (that was my first post and it took a while to figure out the mechanics) I live a mile from the old Tusten station on the Erie Main, and seeing a long string of NJT comets in Narrowsburg during the floods of 06 made me realize for the first time that some day I might be able to take a train to NYC without the 30 mile shlep to Port Jervis thru the Hawk’s Nest by car.
Let me throw a wrench into the monkey works…a friend of mine put me to thinking this a long time ago. First, let me preface this with the current facts. NS owns the track west of Sparrowbush and leases it to the Central New York Railway, a division of the Delaware Otsego System which also is owner of the New York, Susquehanna and Western whch in turn has operating rights from Hudson Jct. to BInghamton. Metro North Railroad leases the track from Sparrowbush to Suffern from NS. In the lease agreement to CNY, NS flatley states there shall be no passenger train operation. the signal system was to have been removed west of Sparrowbush but I dont think it has. NYS&W allows for up to five hours to traverse Port Jervis to BInghamton at this time with speed restrictions and class two or three track. That is the situation as it appears.
I have wondered, if the track Sparrowbush to Deposit were to be properly upgraded, why couldn’t one of the late evening MNRR trains be extended to Deposit. With good enough track it could use about 2 hours. So take train 65 or 67 now arriving PJ at 10:06P and 12:29A and extend either to Deposit arriving no later than 12:30A or 3:00A. Lay up and return to PJ leaving Deposit at 3:30 to take 52"s schedule out of Port at 6:07Am or leave 4:30 to take 54"s schedule of 6:55 or even 5:15 to handle56’s 7:46 departure. (THIS IS ALL CONJECTURE AND NOT PRECISE PLANS, MIND YOU.)
It would be a two man crew going on duty at PJ at 9:30 and off at 6:30 or going on at 12M and be off at 7:30, so it could probably be one crew assingment for one day and even be a single crew job for a week in that the rest time in Deposit would be up to 5 hours. As I said, this is all conjecture but I think it is feasable. Properly advertised and operated with integrity, it might attract a certain number of people from 20 miles either side of the track and west Deposit to get the better part of a car. There are quite
Henry, Mein Gott, you have done your HOMEWORK on the subject! All of my questions, voiced and otherwise answered at once. I have watched the Delaware Valley creep northward from Port gradually over the last 15 years, and both the parking lots at the Bus Station in Monticello and the Train station in Port overflowing with cars. It would seem that a local from Port to Deposit at least a roundtrip turn friday nights and sunday evenings would have ridership. NYC is constantly growing, and with $3000 for a studio apt per month, it will only continue.
As it stands, Port Jervis is 87 miles from Hoboken, which is already an obscenely long commute. This is already reflected in the relatively thin service provided beyond Suffern. Somebody would have to have a very well-paying job to be willing to tolerate a ride of least two hours to and from work.
My thoughts sort of mirror the Erie’s old service to Deposit, once several times daily ending up weekends only in the mid 50’s before the EL merger… One of the things I think that might help renew this service is the fact that MNRR is an existing entity with equipment and access to people to do such a service. I like your conjecture of population growth which is much what I percieve to be true with some driving to NYC if not a railhead in NJ or NY from even Hallstead, PA and Hancock, NY daily! What is needed is a study under the authority of MNRR to determine the vailidity of such a service. I don’t think that it is out of their purview as the population (and the US Census Bureau’s Standard Statistical Data base) contiues to move further away from Times Square.
Yeah, I’ve been involved or whatever with returning passenger service to Binghamton and the Southern tier since January 1970 and have seen all the reports except the last one Amtrak was to have done at the behest of Senator Schumer. I know the qustions that were asked and not asked and the where and where nots they were asked. I know the freight situations and their often correct but more often fearful thoughts on passenger services.
While the current push to restore commuter service between Scranton and NYC may eventually extend to Binghamton, the earliest return of passenger service between NYC and Binghamton may indeed be Amtrak on the old Erie. That would be as part of an additional NYC-Buffalo train which would be routed via the Erie as part of a political deal to get funding for more Empire Service trains.
The cities of the Southern Tier have started expressing the sentiment of being ignored when it comes to being part of the state’s transportation network and getting a train between NYC and Buffalo may be the price demanded to get support for more trains on the current Empire Service route.
I wish them luck. Vern
Vern, I have been involved with restoring passenger service between Binghamton and New York virtually since 1970. A study done in the 90’s commissioned by State Senator Tom Libous and the State Senate indicated that the Erie line was not suitable for many reasons and suggested using the Scranton route for passenger service and the Delaware Valley for freight… What the study did not do was completely study everybody: it did Broome County and then Corning, NY leaving out Owego, WaverlyNY-Sayre&Athens,PA, and Elmira, NY; so it did not have much of a picture of the need. In the early 2000’s there was a committee working toward this service based on hooking up with the NJT Scranton service when it occured as was suggested by the earlier survey. As governments changed duirng the period here in Broome County, the new County Executive wasn’t interested so the committee was ignored out of existance and the one study callef for by Senator Charles Schumer never came to light. Couple all that with the money for the work in NJ and the Poconos not being forthcoming due in part to politics, there is now a limbo over the project. NJT is to be commended for going ahead building to Andover, NJ at this time with an eye to going further west in due time. As politics changes over the next few years, so will the governments, and so will the situation. Getting line and service into Scranton is prime to be followed by a push to get to Binghamton and on to Elmira-Corning and maybe even Buffalo before the middle of the Century I would hope, I know I’ll never see it but I know I’ll be working toward it.
Henry, regarding the Cutoff, I would assume that if it is extended to Scranton a lot of the passengers would be PA residents, but the abandoned section is all in NJ, has PA offered to kick in some money to the Cutoff rebuilding?
I am not sure how that is structured. NJT owns the ROW to the east side of the Delaware River bridge at Columbia, NJ with the PA interests owning or controlling from there to Scranton. I think NJT had thoughts before the Scranton plan of going to Slateford, PA at sometime, maybe as far as E. Stroudsburg. There is a whole plan for this service. NJT is supposedly responsible only as far as Stroudsburg. From there to Scranton would be put up for bid and NJT could bid on it if they want to at the time.
I would imagine it would be up to Metro North with NJDOT doing the ops end, like the current Port Jervis line. I do recall hearing Binghamton mentioned over the years as a possible passenger stop, but can’t remember if it was Amtrak or commuter.
Didn’t NY State grant funds to NYS&W and/or NS to upgrade the old Erie Main Line from Vails Gate to Binghamton in the late 1980s or 1990s? The line largely parallells NY State Route 17. The idea was to provide the minimally acceptable service in order to at least preserve the line. Another post from some years ago in this forum mentioned it was a skeletal service that often ran empty trains to at least save face and preserve the line from complete and total abandonment, as it had no real economic advantage due to its see-saw profile and what amounts to several full 360-degree loops on the trip.
With all due respect, not necessarily. While working in DC I knew a good many people (one of them was one of my bosses) who rode in from Martinsburg, WV on the MARC Commuter Rail, which was about two hours on the train plus a car trip from Martinsburg to wherever they lived. There were also people who rode in from Perryville, MD to the north, which was roughly the same distance. They did it to have affordable housing; if you live anywhere close to DC, you and your spouse HAVE to have pretty good jobs just to get by.