Did the Erie reach Cincinatti and Indianapolis over it’s own rails or was this all trackage rights? (The Cincy-Indianapolis route particularly looks to me as if it could have just been trackage rights on the B&O.) I admit I don’t know much about the “Scarlet Woman of Wall Street” but I’m kind of surprised to see it in such far away places-when it seems to have barely made it to Chicago!
TIA
Hi, Looking at a map in the April 24, 1960 public timetable (one of the last ones before the Erie/ Delaware, Lackawanna & Western merger) shows the Erie running from Marion, OH to Cincinnati over Erie rails. At Hamilton, OH (just North of Cincinnati) The Erie switched to B&O rails to reach Indianapolis.
Did Erie (or EL) run into Indy?
Or did they have haulage rights on B&O trains?
ed
The April, 1958 issue of the Guide has a timetable that shows the Erie running from Marion to Dayton; as well as I can tell, it then had trackage rights over the B&O into Cincinnati, through Hamilton. The map in that issue shows the line from Hamliton to Indianapolis as being B&O track.
Johnny
I believe you’ll find the Erie’s home tracks only extended as far as Dayton, OH. The lines from Dayton to Cincinnati and from Hamilton to Indianapolis were both B&O.
B&O/CH&D/CI&W (for a while, some of it was an unusual 3-rail dual gauge broadgauge/standard gauge)
OK, thanks for the answers where…but now my question is, “why”? Why such a circuitous route to Indianapolis? No reason for interchange that I can see…hauling freight westbound to Indy doesn’t get you to anyone that you can’t hand it off to in Chicago-and get a longer haul, to boot. Asking the Pennsy, B&O, NYC or anyone else to short haul themselves to hand off eastbound freight in Indianapolis seems likely to result in little more than “See ya in Jersey City”. Again, why not take the interchange in Chicago and get the larger rate division?
Was it some way to get a share of the rate to/from St. Louis? Was Indy that big a traffic origin and/or destination in itself?
I think your last theory is the correct answer. Also traffic from the west that a western railroad would short haul itself by directing to Chicago might end up on the Erie if the Erie was willing to take it at Indanapolis and not insist on taking it at Chicgo.
I am with you here…“why Indianapolis?” Also, my earlier question has gone unanswered…did Erie (EL) actually run trains to Indy, or use B&O haulage rights?
Ed
I believe the Erie had a trackage rights agreement with the B&O from Marion to Dayton then haulage rights agreement west of there. It was, what we would call today, a marketing and service operation.
The Cincinnati, Hamilton & Dayton ran from Cincinnati north through Hamilton and Dayton to Toledo, and west from Hamilton through Indianapolis to Springfield, IL. The Atlantic & Great Western acquired trackage rights from Dayton to Cincinnati in 1865, and then the Erie acquired the A&GW during 1874. The Erie then purchased the CH&D in 1905, but let it go in shortly afterwards as it was in a poor financial condition. After receivership, the B&O acquired the CH&D in 1917. As for the trackage rights from Hamilton to Indianapolis, these would have been acquired by the A&GW or the Erie before 1906 to serve Indianapolis, and not for interchange with other railroads.
I don’t know anything about the Erie outside of New York state. As a teenager (1950s), I worked at a summer resort across the Delaware from Narrowsburg, NY. It was a fine, wide, double-tracked line with upper-quadrant semaphore signal and lots of Alco Diesels. What more could one ask for? Even the EMD units were handsome, both in the passenger and freight livery.
Hays
The line from Marion to Dayton was owned by the Erie Railroad (later EL).
While I cannot find original ownership/history of the line, the 1972 Moody’s Transportation Manual shows an Erie Railroad Co. bond as follows:
Erie Railroad Co., Ohio Division first 7s (formerly 3.25s) dur 1980:
$18million issued, $12.275 outstanding, originally 3.25%, originally due Sept 1, 1971 but defered to “work its way out of the existing financial squeeze”. The bonds were reset to 7%, 1980 and carried a Caa rating. .
The bonds were placed a first lien on "roads formerly constitued …Nypano, Cleveland & Mahoning Valley, Youngstown & Austintown Railway Co. and Westerman Coal & Iron RR.
Listed as one of the lines is:
Marion-Dayton, Ohio 85.2 miles
Further, the route map of Erie Lackawanna shows trackage rights from Dayton to Hamilton and Cincinnati and from Hamliton to Indianapolis. As far as I can determine those are the only trackage rights shown on the map. More than likely EL had other trackage rights in the system, probably for smaller distances which didnt scale on the map.
The summary of mileage for the EL system, dated December 31, 1971 lists “trackage rights granted by other companies” as 189.41. The March 1965 Official Guide lists Baltimore and Ohio mileage as follows:
Dayton - Cincinnati - 57.4 miles
Hamilton - Indianapolis - 98.6 miles
These two total 156 miles. So, it appears the majority of the 189.41 miles of trackage rights the EL had were to gain access to Cincinnati and Indianapolis.
ed
Alright, I have done a little work since the posting on the Erie bonds. Here is what i have found:
There is an excellent website rails.jimgword.com which lists EL freight symbols and a summary of each from the 1960 merger until the demise of EL in 1976. Symbols MD-97 and DM98 are listed as Marion-Dayton trains. Nothing is listed beyond Dayton to Cincinnati or Indianapolis.
The Fallen Flags website has a description of the Dayton branch operations pertaining to the Dayton area. EL trains would enter Dayton and pass the interlocking with the B&O Toledo mainline. The train would then have a backup move apprx 3 mile sto the B&O Needmore yard.
B&O would then deliver the Cincinnati traffic for Southern and L&N and also the Indianapolis traffic.
So, it appears Dayton was the end of the line. What the financial arrangements were for Cincy and Indy is not known (interchange vs haulage), but we do know that EL trains were not run to either city (at least after 1960).
ed
That link doesn’t seem to work.
This works
It would be interesting to research whether the Erie ever operated its own trains into Indianapolis (as the Erie Railroad). If the B&O handled the traffic for them, then obviously B&O yards were the switching point for any Erie business. In addition to local business, again I can imagine there may have been some interchange business. The Monon, for one, would probably rather turn frieght over to the Erie than to either the PRR or NYC, both of which competed with the Monon for Indianapolis Chicago business. If and when the Erie ran its own trains to Indianapolis, the particular yard it used would be of interest and an indication of where the business was.