Eurostar development and speeds

As you may know the Eurostar was developed in fits and stages.

The French were bigger proponents of a trans chunnel link than the Brits and the development of the tracks for the Eurostar reflected this.

When the Eurostar started in 1994 the French side tracks were 300 km/h (185mph) at the start. The British side was max 160 km/h (100mph). The trains on the British side followed the classic routes from Waterloo to Dover. 3rd rail electric and congested with commuter trains.

The Brits had proposed a 300 km/h link following roughly the same path. Why? Well it had always been that route. Problem was 1) the route is very hilly. 2) the route goes through densely populated and affluent neighborhoods.

Nimbys everywhere and I don’t blame them. Construction at best would take a better part of a decade. Who wants to live with that? And the terrain meant lots of tunnels and/or deep cuts through the hills. Expensive. And the land to be acquired was not only expensive in itself but was full of homes worth about a million $ each. The whole project was just like the California HSR.

This is what a trip on the Eurostar would look like speedwise in 1994.


It looked like given the cost a proposed HSR line also into Waterloo on a similar route would be nevertime. Yet BR and government planners still stubbornly wanted the old route through affluent south London.

Finally Ove Arup who ran an enormous engineering and construction company in the UK proposed the British HSR to come in to London from the east (not the south) just along the north side of the Thames ending in St. Pancras (a terminal that traditionally went north to the British Midlands). This was unconventional! Novel! Brilliant! It was also cheap! Speed limit was kept to 230 km/h (140 mph) to keep costs down for the tighter turns in the congested area.

This area was delapidated. Think old warehouses and docks designed for sailing ships and long abandoned. The people living there were poor and often jobless. Rather than being nimbys the east Londoners were yimbys. Yes they loved the decade long construction jobs. And literally only a few homes were needed as the line went through unused industrial areas. And the land was basically free in many places. Win/win.

The new route was done in two stages. The first stage was easier to build and went from Dover on the Channel northwest through mostly open farmland (no thousands of million $ homes needed to be torn down there) to Southfleet just south of the Thames (about 25 miles east of London) where it linked in to existing tracks to Waterloo.

On the left side is what a Eurostar run from London looked like with a departure from Waterloo on existing route and connecting at Southfleet with the HSR.

The right side is a Eutostar run after the second stage from St Pancras on the north side of the Thames was completed to Southfleet.

This my friend is how to build HSR in the USofA.

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Only if it’s done privately.

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Why? Not sure what you mean?

Except you’ll find very few ‘yimbys’ in the dilapidated areas taken. See the objection to gas turbines for the Memphis xAI project.

Maybe in Memphis they weren’t offered any construction jobs like the Brits did. If you wanna take something ya gotta give something in return. The East Londoners were thrilled. That I know for sure. There was even a book about the whole thing. Which I read. Lots of news clippings from the papers about the CTRL as they called it.

There was almost no resistance. Or they kept quiet so as not to PO their neighbors who wanted the jobs. Unions were happy. Local borough government happy. Homeowners happy to get high paying unskilled jobs. According to the book only something like four or five homes needed to be taken for the whole line.

The situations in late 20th C UK and USA 2025> are apples and oranges. The articles are interesting. Eurostar is a useful service. We rode it from Brussels to London s few years ago.

Pics from the book. And I was wrong. Just 2 houses! And they called themselves PIMBYs.



What’s different? I can’t think of any country that is more alike culturally politically economically except Canada.

UK had economically depressed swaths right en route; those areas did not have many homes with voters opposed; eminent domain is easier in UK; UK has had popularly elected socialist governments off and on over the past 80 years.

As far as I’m concerned, it should not be done with government involvement. Government-run trains are unconstitutional.

I guess some people want government run highways and schools but not passenger trains.

Although I agree the government would probably mess it up HSR. But our government highways and public schools are not the best either. I use privately run ones where available. But I’m willing to pay taxes for those more unfortunate than me. They usually are the ones putting food on my table.

I also appreciated the taxpayers paying for my salary when I served in the Navy. In early America they just took people to serve. Kind of nice they pay us to volunteer now.

God bless America.

I don’t think much of government-run schools and highways either! Though, out of that, the highways are somewhat constitutionally justifiable.
Taxes are neccesary, and I will not avoid paying them. I just want to make certain that I’m paying for something that the government should do…
Either way, I have to agree with you on this: God Bless America!

That’s why I like trains in median strips of interstates. No homes there.

Farmers probably are reasonable too. Especially if like in France they pay them above market rates and build them underpasses to get to the other side for free. And pay them rents for the easement. They also throw in free tractors and combines as a sweetener.

By the way Thatcher and the other Conservative Party PMs would like a word about socialist policies. :face_with_hand_over_mouth:

How did the UK pay for its share of the Eurostar? Do passenger and other fees - goods - cover the fully allocated costs of the system? How about the operating costs?

I believe Eurostar the train operator is completely private and does not receive any government money. I believe the tunnel and tracks were government funded but I think privately operated.

I also think the hope was for the chunnel traffic (freight and pax) to fully repay the capital costs but that proved to be impossible. So track user fees cover a portion but not all of the capex bond payments. But I think user fees cover all recurring op expenses.

I’ll do some searches to confirm.

BTW that book I took a pic of really is a primer on how to do HSR. When Britain decided to do HS2 London to Scotland they completely forgot the lessons learned with HS1 (which is what they now call the line from London to Dover). It’s not quite the boondoggle of Calif HSR but it’s bad. It’s been cut back to just London to Birmingham. Just a 1/3 of the original projection. From Birm it will use existing West Coast Main Line.

Correction. Eurostar has received monies from French and British governments during Covid when ridership dropped 99% before recovering back to over 100% today. They also received government money during the Global Financial Crisis to cancel a portion of their original construction debt. I didn’t realize they were originally responsible for that but they were.

Although private Eurostar’s shareholders are SNCF (55%), Caisse de dépôt et placement du Québec (30%), Hermes Infrastructure (10%) and SNCB (5%). Caisse is an institutional investor that manages several public and parapublic pension plans and insurance programs in the Canadian province of Quebec. SNCF is the French National RR. SNCB is the Belgium National RR.

SNCF had invested in a lot of private train operating companies in the UK. That will all go away as Britain has decided to renationalize and is in the process of taking over the private companies as their franchises expire. Personally I think they have forgotten why they privatized BR 40 years ago. Just watch old British comedy shows to know why.

Here is Eurostar’s 2024 annual report. They are currently profitable without government assistance.
https://s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/document-api-images-live.ch.gov.uk/docs/XnPCvTclmvY_ztu2FKeiH5_U_pBIdoZPbHof85jkvGE/application-pdf?X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Credential=ASIAWRGBDBV3D67XEPMH%2F20250703%2Feu-west-2%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20250703T222416Z&X-Amz-Expires=60&X-Amz-Security-Token=IQoJb3JpZ2luX2VjEBQaCWV1LXdlc3QtMiJIMEYCIQCt41%2BpoC8YbQC9Y4EE8b%2Bs1XB4khao47T9C7n%2FepDW0AIhAJ99GPfBng9U0t4uMil1ZMIfdQgMSjWjch9WRazhjjNsKroFCBwQBRoMNDQ5MjI5MDMyODIyIgyr09gT2yt9CjTYTT0qlwVW%2BdAN2f0G6Zj0uMsToWYyE1hH91r1JgexkmoQ6zN7nrO9j5sk4i8eaIMgyttS2EKf%2F4qgb1QRSiuuece9BWJc8peqcCcY9c%2F44v6z%2BVx9H50MhEWXtKQM8wbhlO3%2BLk1C%2BrtWBlrKhgisJYvfWXhakjLzzZNRweLX6HmvAblXJMFdGY0Db5HFREZYNvoBqV2oV5fz7FXx8glFZnjQFgUaxt2FI8i5%2BHDn08Ba0NM%2FcPDfL9vWW49KJPWRtfT7fUE7S6pi9bAq1Li5jZfJD%2Flm5QzBYcuUXf3VVZl1OCEqjsvrk%2BZrtv%2Favd3RdA%2BfTJZNouKYvXP62lpLE%2BpyeGlZwXyJAYsx8nj1tNc4%2BqQS5l11822GMhEgn%2BgzXrF%2Fc4JqkhiInyJUXHiE2qgQGUSaPaDy5wjBALNih6ySc2GzcodrS4nDvaM%2FUidyH1TQsz26psv7YOSgUybAjhwDPcOMRr7ciQLgY%2Bq%2B%2BbGbmB%2Ffp8Nodk3QOd4dOmfqntiz2NzE%2B0njbExl87Is%2FqLbhiza5YzMfZXBCJGxMKnW2AtTtac7fNh1jUBfjEW9cvdPaqs%2FuK%2F%2BVNYGft5WlOMu4IGre6LiMsnn%2BtHaD6gIkDyTO6Oz8KA%2FJAADsQNaY6tXJxlylKIk8vMWuR0BglfZfs%2FsIWZn10pqR5dRJNF0Oj0dV7V0cmapHWT9Duv3dZ%2BnVzKf9AXWOLL75H%2BTjtLAiAh%2FXZXkNJSC1MiWztIv6olPg816nWiLaXHVbPBlJETpDbjr0Wwr23fqJBDdOzUMa1Z6dIngP1TUeRUi4maidx7Z5NECcJpFqG85ngVYI1J4oCXMHYWpDrQLiEIM4iFDBeIVDrbsAo6LA1ycV3htOb9v43%2B7gWFDa1Qww6%2BbwwY6sAHCVWCISPbyNXXKOROwEicGty%2Bz9lPdSqq5RndQal10x1v13iodQEuKZ6FmLAkYqwqc4CsfMnGmOVLAhphZQbxfMELGdbWSqVwP4hlJTtshkJNSGYjffE9o2UJ9ISbwHG2uayMD2jb%2B1nbTLMj0nevk581x%2FTXG53iqItqAPBJnL3wpW3M39w4XkpvlUWnmQLWkFBJGj5QR5Pp4Vc6aSt%2BTedbxadYCg0DTb9UsFcZAmw%3D%3D&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&response-content-disposition=inline%3Bfilename%3D"companies_house_document.pdf"&X-Amz-Signature=b632eef39573b928d0f3cfa95570f799eec4bffb38c2c96405422e500112b708

As I recall, the private entity has the ‘usufructo’ of the tunnel for 50 years from its completion, after which ownership vests in the two governments.

There have been several Labour (socialist) governments since the war. How do you think the UK got British Rail? Or the National Health? The Iron Lady?

Oh I know. But they must not have liked them too much as they switched back to the Tories.

But they must not have liked the Tories too much either because they then switch back to Labour.

Sounds like the US.

They sound like Jay Leno “I vote for Republicans until they do something greedy. Then I vote for Democrats until they do something dumb.”

Have we ever had one party in charge more than 8 years since WW2? I can only think of Reagan and Bush Sr. And Bush only got one term. So 12 years?

But probably for the best. Pols otherwise get too entrenched and then detached.

Mostly one term these days.