I am currently into my third HO layout since 2005.
The first was temporary. It was on a 10’x5’ table and I used Atlas True Track. It was three loops with a reverse section crossing through the middle and a couple of industrial spurs. It was designed more for running trains continuously in circles than for switching purposes. I used this layout while I was building a new room where I planned to build a more permanent layout.
To my delight my wife allowed me to take the larger side of the already finished basement (19’x24’), instead of the new room I was almost finished with (17’x13’).
I started the second layout in the larger room in February 2007. It was 14’x18’ “E” shaped layout with a lower level staging area.
I drew up the plans and had the benchwork laid by June 2007. At that time I sat back and took a good look at the room and the size of the layout. It took up most of the room and I was overwhelmed with the though
Yes. I have been there done that. I would bet most of us have.
But this is an easy one. Rip it down. Rebuild. The fun is doing it not finishing it. You did not waste those months… you just became better at the hobby. Your new layout will be better and progress faster because of your added skill. You will never look back.
If your not happy with it now at this stage, you never will be.
My first 8’ x 20’ layout in my old garage was rebuilt twice before I had to do a major downsize of it, I managed to make another extension to it before I had to dismantle the whole enchillada for construction. When I decided to start anew I was unhappy with the point to point layout I had planned out in actual operation, so I did a major brainstorming session and rebuilt the layout with an over and under loop included. Its visually much more interesting now and still operates very close to the original vision.
So dont think that just because you layed all that track its set in stone. If something bugs you then you should re-evaluate why and make ammends, if you not happy with it in the Plywood Pacific stage, you never will be in the Scenic Central stage.
I was EXACTLY where you are now a few months ago. I wanted to start completely over, but some friends convinced me otherwise. I made some major improvements (tearing up the main classification yard to build a new, bigger one, upgrading the loco fleet, switching to metal wheels and Kadee couplers) and now I’m very happy with the layout.
I would change what’s broken, but not start all over. Change what needs to be changed, and don’t be afraid of doing a lot till you’re happy with the layout. It will almost always be less work (and less stress) than starting all over from scratch! Fix it until you’re happy with it. You’ll get over this “rebuild” urge if you give it time and get rid of the big problems. Once I fixed my yard and the other big problems, I now can live with some of the other minor problems (at least until I fix those too!) and have the patience to repair the trackwork and equipment fleet. I’m very happy I didn’t rebuild.
I kind of wish I had done a double folded dog bone along the walls instead of my duck under. I don’t dislike what I’ve done, so I can’t justify the expense of tearing it down and restarting over. The dog bone would have given me more free space in the building for doing other projects.
I would be loath to start over…personally. It seems to me you have reached a serious obstacle, but it is not insurmountable. Why not learn about automating your two temporary track placements, the bridge and the duckunder? You can gear and motorize them quite easily and make them DCC controlled with detector circuitry. It will take some thinking, designing, and building, but it will comprise a useful function when you can then claim both the resultant satisfaction plus all the work you have done to date. I would be tickled to have what you have right now…exactly as your images show! I would know the way ahead, and be glad of the change my own nearly three-year old layout needs. I don’t have the room, for one thing, and my track plan needs upgrading. You are well ahead of me, if you can believe it.
I can put you in touch with a fellow who built a motorized lift bridge and did a darned fine job. He may even be able to help you with detection circuitry, or someone else will.
Your wife will become unsettled and worry if you continue to demure after so much effort. She will be concerned over the expenses, your apparent lack of clarity, your inability to persevere and solve problems…the list goes on. For both your sakes, finish it!!! Be able to show her how you bull-dozed your way through the tough times. It will be the most concrete thing you can do to show her your interest in the hobby, even more than the finished layout. She knows this layout is but a step, but you must be able to place it to step to another stone…so to speak. Demonstrate to yourself and to her that you are a true model railroader with all the verve, gumption, intelligence, stubbornness, and drive to complete what you undertook to complete. Think of Benjamin Franklin, your own countryman…“Perform without fail what you resolve.”
As “one Bill to another”, may I say I have felt your pain. May I also say that it appears you have done a darned nice job so far and are very fortunate to have that space and the skills that are evident.
My present layout was up and running in 1992, and is 11x15 with staging on a lower level. It literally fills the room and the operating space is in the center - reached by a 3 foot deep duck-under. It was almost finished (layouts are never truly finished) a few years ago, but there were a few areas that just were not right to me. In short, I got cute with a reverse loop on an upper level (lots of retaining walls and bridge work), that took up way too much valuable space. Secondly, I put a couple of turnouts in a tunnel that is near impossible to see. Thirdly, I put another reverse loop on the route down to the staging tracks which caused more grief than not. And lastly, I initially had all turnouts electrified and a whole lot of blocks of which many were not necessary.
On the surface, the layout got its shares of ooohs and ahhhs from folks, and the track/benchwork/wiring was bulletproof. But the above problems kept me from running trains very much. It was like I had to “relearn” the layout each time I went in to it.
Anyway, to make a long story short, I just recently bit the bullet and drew up the new plans (in scale), and am now clearing off the layout to begin the demo. Sadly, I have lots of nice ballasted track and rockwork and retaining walls that have to go.
May I suggest, that if the only real problem you have is the fold down bridge, I would just bolt it down and do a duck-under. If there is more that you are truly unhappy with, I strongly recommend you stop everything, and figure out what you want, and rebuild.
I have read your entire post and (I think) all of the replies, but I seem to be missing one piece of information: why do you have to start the train then race the train to the bridge in the first place? It looks to me like this happens because you can not see the staging area from the normal operationg areas (inside the layout). It seems to me you want to stage all of the trains prior to an operating session, then enter the layout and conduct the session, running trains out of and back into hidden staging. If you could see the staging from inside the layout would this solve the problem? How about a video camera with a monitor mounted where it can be clearly viewed from inside the layout? FYI, this is the solution I will be implementilng on my layout.
Of course, if you need to do switching/shuffling of equipment in staging during an operating session, I see your dilemma. My solution also assumes that you are happy with the layout other than the staging situation. If so, I would suggest trying to find a solution to get the existing layout to work. If not, as others ghave said, you will not ever be happy so may as well try another approach.
On the bright side, the work you are doing looks to be of very impressive quality, and at least you are getting lots of practice [8D] Hope my comments help you move in the right direction. Jamie
If I were lucky enough to have a layout as nice as your photos show, I’d take out the 9mm before tearing it down!![xx(] You should be able to rework it rather than ripping it up. How about making a scale track plan and posting it on the layout building forum - I bet you’ll get all kinds of alternate plan ideas!![:D]
I must say you have done some great looking work. It is easy for me to understand your pain, just last week I tore up my last layout. It had to be done due to the fact that there is a move in my immediate future and the old layout modules would not fit the space very well. Also this has been the 3rd layout since 2004 that has been build and ripped down. Each layout is a huge learning experience. So far each layout was build with the thought that it will be demolished again soon due to space restrictions or moves.
In your case if the hidden staging is a issue then is there a way to modify the existing track plan to suit you better. Or if your only issue is with the staging-which is what I understand from your post-due to being out of sight then install a camera or track detection system. The camera might be a lot easier to do though. Here is a link to a camera that once installed could be wired directly into a TV that could be used to monitor the activities here is the link http://www.wintroniccomputers.com/wintronics/viewProduct.jspa?product=4eb5b0e6131a099601131c4a6e38000e .
I appreciate everyone’s ideas. I haden’t really thought much of modifying instead of completely tearing it down but it is another way of fixing the problem.
As stated one of the things I don’t like is starting a train from the staging area then rushing around to open the lift gate to get inside the layout and have the gate shut before the train arrives. I guess I can always stop the train or let it pass before opening the gate.
The other things that I didn’t think through well was what industries I really wanted and how to get them to work well in the areas I have. There are four areas I wanted to place industries. They are at the two corners that are open, the triangular area on the upper level and the area inside the center island.
Below are a few new pictures I took this evening so you can see what the staging area looks like as well as the Island and the whole layout.
Any other thoughts on industries? I do want to have a coal industry but haven’t decided exactly where it should go. Also wanted a coal fired power plant for the coal industry to serve.
Yep, tear it apart and fix it or re-do it altogether.
You will never be satisifed with it if you aren’t now, and everything you to do it from now on will be a waste of money and effort when you finally throw in the towel and tear it down.
I have learned through experince that, if I am not 100% satisfied with something about the layout, it needs to be repaired now, because I won’t 'learn to like" or “accept it” later. It’ll just keep gnawing at me until I finally do change it.
Sometimes that means pulling up feet of handlaid track or a turnout. I recently restarted a layoutbecause I wasn’t satisfied with how it was turning out as I completed the benchwork. But it needed to be done.
If it’s any consolation, you seem to be at a stage in the layout where a complete makeover will not be that costly. You haven’t done any scenery so taking up the track and reusing it will be easy to do. I imagine most if not all the lumber can be recycled on a new layout as well.
I’m a big fan of the This Old House tv series and one thing that has come up many times on the show is that making changes to the plan while it is still in the framing stage is not that expensive. Once the finish work has gone on, it gets real expensive to make changes. You seem to be at an equivalent stage in your layout.
I would guess that it is the rule rather than the exception that modelers don’t get it right on their first layout attempt, or even the second or third. My first layout was in 10x11 spare bedroom in an apartment and I didn’t think it was going to last long and it didn’t. When I moved into my first house, I had an 11x28 foot section of the basement plus a staging loop in the other half of the basement but started with a real poor design. While still in the bare plywood stage, I did a complete makeover with a totally different schematic. It was better than the first but still not a good design. I ended up taking a 10 year hiatus from the hobby which gave me a lot of time to think and plan for the next one which I have been working on for the last 6 years. I think I got it mostly right this time. I had a good sound concept and a layout design to carry it out. I think this is going to be my last layout. If I had it to do over again, I don’t think there is that much that I would change.
Ok, I really don’t understand this. Why do you have to be in the staging area when you start a train there? I operate on one layout were the staging area is hidden. No one sees the trains while they are in that area.
Bill, for one thing most of us wish we had your layout. With what I would call a round the room layout you should run from the inside. My next layout will be much like yours.
Far as hidden stagging, why does it have to be hidden? If it just the lack of room and its under the bench I would under stand, but a back drop? Is it because you are wanting the layout to look bigger? My self, I would want to show off the rolling stock.
Far as room for a mining company and power plant, you might need to add a spur or two. I my self see a lot of room for the above.
Far as the quest for perfection, that I understand from my other hobby’s. Many people have look at me like I am nuts when I spend hundreds of hours of block sanding on one of my cars. Or being a audiophile and having $20,000.00 in stereo gear in my train room / garage. One thing I have found, there is no such thing as the perfect anything, it could all wise be better. Just like the cars and stereo gear, you have to stop sometimes and enjoy what you have.
My LHS K-10 train layout is 60 foot X 80 foot! The owner is still not happy with it.
Maybe if you could do a quick drawing of the bench work you are thinking about (no tracks just bench) maybe we would have a better idea of what you think you want.
By the way, you could build my next bench if you get bored.
If you want a folded dogbone style, then change the benchwork and eliminate the duckunder / liftout then have the track turn back at each corner. Obviously this would change the track plan but that is not the end of the world.
I would not tear it all out, just fix what you have to to make it work out right. Accept that you will be completely changing your track plan.
I have learned that less track makes a better model railroad, don’t be tempted to cram in track everywhere, allow room for the scenery.
This is a classic problem that befalls far too many model railroaders…and in a great number of instances, ends up having no real cure.
In general, the problem seems to result from choosing a layout design of too great a size and complexity, too early in one’s modeling career, particularly when one has not truly decided on just what they really want. I’d be willing to bet that at least 50% of the guys with this sort of problem NEVER will ever get beyond a layout in the track-on-plywood stage, no matter how many layouts they start, before tearing it down and starting something new. They end up spending their entire caeer building benchwork. I’ve seen this time and time again.
In this situation the dissatisfaction in the current layout’s design usually arises from progress being so slow (the layout pictured would take a decade or more to properly scenic, more to actually finish) that the hobbyist becomes subconsciously bored and discouraged, seeing all sort of shortcomings or undesirable aspects in the layout’s design.
In my opinion, the only sensible solution is to decide on a layout design of a much more managable size and lesser complexity that you seem to really like and build it start to finish. If, after a year or two of its operation, you find it really doesn’t suit you needs, then perhaps it might be time to start looking around at ideas for something bigger, more challenging and complex. Empires are rarely built successfuly when one is just starting out.
Here’s my [2c] . It looks like you’re putting too much emphasis on the shape of the layout and/or the trackplan and not enough on what you want the railroad to accomplish. The trackplan while large and roomy looks to me more like a slot car layout than a railroad. I think I would get a copy of John Armstrongs layout design book and you’ll see what I mean.A railroad should go from somewhere to somewhere, not necessarily in an E shaped pattern or a dogbone. A model railroad should have a theme. Is it mainline heavy freight from city to city? BNSF or more of a specialized local hauler or branchline. (Montana Rail Link). I dont see a lot of thought about the type of scenery you want to run through.Eastern,western mountain,or central prairie for ex. Where are the terminals and sorting yards?Where are the light industries (,potato packers) where are the heavies(ore hauling coal hauling, intermodal)? What generates the traffic on your layout and who are the recieving parties.
If just running trains is your bag I guess the plan you have is OK, but for interesting operation you should consider the above things and maybe do a little more research into what job your railroad does for a more satisfying layout,BILL
This may be hard to believe but,after 57 years in the hobby I never built or even started ISL or any of the small loop layouts that I did not want or could not finish in a reasonable amount of time.
Why?
Simple…I have this habit of not wanting to build a Godzilla size layout that is hard to finish and to maintain.I do this by not following the so called “leaders” in the hobby that owns Godzilla size layouts,pay no heed to that old “dream layout” teachings that magazines are famous for nor do I buy layout books…Nor do I subscribe to “Bigger is better” malarkey.
I think Clint Eastwood in the roll of “Dirty Harry” in “Magnum Force” summed it up best…“A man gotta know his limitations”.
And so it is with the hobby…Many modelers bite off more then they can accomplish due to limitations, available funds,available time,“bigger is better” and “Ooh I like that layout” mentality, etc,etc.
IMHO its best to sit down and think about the best size layout that fits your needs without following the “leaders” ideas of what a layout should be and fully understanding your limitations.
