Everyone is missing the obvious in the Metrolink wreck.

Hey Ulrich,

I think the stakes are much higher when a train engineer screws up than when a single truck driver or crane operator makes a mistake. Your knee jerk reaction that if engineers need a second pair of eyes to help do their job then everyone else will be entitled to the same “budy-team” system is a non-sequitur.

PS: A non-sequitur is an inference that does not follow from the premises.

There is a big difference between airport shuttle systems that are designed for automated operation and single track railroad lines operating with both frieght and Passenger trains of three different carriers (Union Pacific, Amtrak, and Metrolink).

As for having spirited discussions while not watching were they are going well I supose that is possible but I believe that profissional railroaders would put aside their differences when it comes to calling out signals.

Not true. I just do not like someone who’s behavior puts my (as well as others) life at risk.

EVERYONE in the operating department of any class 1 railroad has fallen asleep on duty at one time or another (but only the honest ones admit it). I certainly have. And when I did, I was not happy with myself, for I knew I put my life, as well as my conductor’s life, as well as the life of everyone who lived near the tracks, at risk.

Hey Mark,

So you mean to tell me that you have never had an experience where someone riding with you didn’t point out or remind you about something that you may have missed. I am willing to bet you have had such things happen to you but the occasions were so minor that you have forgoten all about them. Remember everyone, the history books are full of major tragedies that could have been avoided had one single factor been changed. Had a second man been in that cab I doubt he would have kept silent while the train was aproaching a stop signal without at the very least making some sort of comment.

I think there is a good case to be made for having alertors installed to keep conductors awake as well. Here is an idea, how about a system were both the conductor and engineer both have to press a button at the same time to shut off the alarm? I am willing to bet that that would be cheeper than installing a PTS system on an entire railroad system.

On the other hand I have worked with some engineers who preffer working with “chaterbox” conductors because it helps them stay awake and alert.

Of course in the EU where the railroads have been subsidised by Socialist infrastructure programs I am willing to bet all locomotives and rail lines have some sort of Positive Train Seperation system already in place. The railroads in North America had systems like this in the past, we called it ATS (Automatic Train Stop) but as the fortunes of the railroad industry saged between 1950-1990 most of these safety systems were ripped out to cut maintenance costs. It would cost a fortune and take years to re-install an up to date Positive Train Control system today, an extra pair of eyes on the otherhand could be placed in all passenger train cabs within a year and cost only a fraction of PTS technology.

In responding to a prior post I would like to add that having a second pair of eyes in the cab is exactly what is need in commuter train service. Since these trains run on tight scheduals that run in a predictable manner each day, engineers run the risk of getting into the mind set that they will get the same signal aspets at the same locations every day. I suspect that the Metrolink engineer assumed he had a light at that Control Point because he almost never got held there by the dispatcher in the past. Had a second person been in that cab to call attention to the unusual signal aspect the accident would never have happend.

Two lines of thinking. First, and most important is the persons ability to maintain focus on his job. Situational awareness. I dont have an issue with a single person in the cab of short run/time trains. There are a lot of outstanding examples out there of safe operations.

Next, PTC. As an engineer who has run with ATC, I say, bring on PTC. It will be far better than ATC could ever hope, and allow more fluid operations. And yes, far safer in situations where short run/time commuters come into play.

Once familiar with a line segment, you know where all the signals are, and expect them, just like you do at grade crossings, station stops, and so on. If you have the radio on, you hear other potential conflicting moves happening. So it is not as if you are running blind.

As a counter-example, what about New York City subway trains or PATH commuter trains? During rush hours some trains have about 500 passengers and run at intervals of about a minute. That’s a huge responsibility. They’re remarkably safe, and I don’t hear anyone saying safety suffers for lacking a second person in the cab – remarkable in a city filled with so many people quick to criticise. One thing not mentioned is that most commuter operations run on a thin edge, requiring a second person would probably make most of them economically unviable.

I don’t know of any subways that have crossings at grade; that many trespassers; heavy equipment getting foul of the tracks; washouts; floods; landslides; trees on the tracks; sun kinks; snow drifts; blizzards; signals hard to see because of snow, fog, and sunlight; farm animals running loose on the right of way; obscured site lines because of rampant vegetation growth; Rule 42s; slow orders; freight trains going by; railway equipment on or near the track; manual derails to set; etc.

I’m not positive but isn’t there some form of fail safe mechanism if a subway train goes by a stop signal or exceeds a set speed limit?

There’s just way too much going on in the head end for just one person on a busy rail line especially in an urban area. Multi track mixed with single track aggravates the situation.

It’s not viable to have an extra employee in the head end when it conflicts with the bottom line. Remember, the new age mantra is ‘Profit Before Safety’. Shareholders come first. Also the commuter service in question is operated by contractors and it’s their business to make money, not provide a safe working environment for their employees or a safe environment for the public both on and off the train. Contractors will cut corners left and right to save expenditures on the maintenance of the infrastructure and maintaining adequate personal.

In the lon

You’d lose that bet. Not all locos or lines in Europe have PTS, nor do all railways in Europe receive subsidies from “socialist infrastructure programs”…

Mark.

Hmm. You’re in commuter train service yourself?

Assuming of course that the second person was paying attention. Big assumption, based on my experience.

Mark.

Quite possibly, but as I don’t have any first-hand experience of running US commuter trains, I wouldn’t like to say with certainty. As I wrote earlier, I think each case should be considered on its merits. I’ve never run loco-hauled commuter trains, only EMUs and DMUs, all of which are equipped with deadman control, vigilance control - alerters - and trip gear - automatic train stops.

If you don’t acknowledge the vigo, or don’t operate a nominated control during the timing cycle, the system will activate, and you will eventually get a penalty if you don’t respond. In our case, the vigo will make an emergency application and take the power away, and the train will stop. If you spad, the trip gear operates, the brake pipe is opened, power is shut off, and the train will stop. In either case, getting the air back requires the co-operation of the guard - conductor - before you can proceed. So as I wrote before, I can’t see any advantage in two-man crews for our operation. But as I said, horses for courses. You may well be right about a second person where Metrolink is concerned.

Cheers,

Mark.

Tokyo has grade crossings and they’re about as busy as it gets. Chicago also has some. I think subway train drivers have plenty of hazards to look out for such as people wandering on the tracks, over-, under-shooting platforms, etc. AFAIK snow drifts, farm animals, etc. weren’t factors in the L.A. crash.

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I’m not positive but isn’t there some form of fail safe mechanism if a subway train goes by a stop signal or exceeds a set speed limit?

There’s just way too much going on in the head end for just one person on a busy rail line especially in an urban area. Multi track mixed with single track aggravates the situation.

It’s not viable to have an extra employee in the head end when it conflicts with the bottom line. Remember, the new age mantra is ‘Profit Before Safety’. Shareh

I don’t know of any subways that have crossings at grade; that many trespassers; heavy equipment getting foul of the tracks; washouts; floods; landslides; trees on the tracks; sun kinks; snow drifts; blizzards; signals hard to see because of snow, fog, and sunlight; farm animals running loose on the right of way; obscured site lines because of rampant vegetation growth; Rule 42s; slow orders;

West side of Chicago crosing several main streets.

Subway systems are equiped with fail safe devises that will stop train in the advent of a speed limit or signal aspect violation. As I said before you are comparing apples to oranges here.

  1. Actually I am a frieght train conductor who works in Commuter train territory, so I do know what kinds of things Commutrer train crews confront.

  2. The rule book says that both members of a train crew are responsible for the safe opperation of their train. The rule book also states that each crew member has the responsibility to remind their co-workers to follow the rules, including the one that states that employees must be alert and atentive while on the job. Clearly Mark, if you have had trouble with inatentive crewmembers it is your fault for not correcting that situation.

Presumably the servers at least a couple of steps up from an e-machines rack mount box running Windows Vista home edition… Probably the most straightforward way of getting reasonably decent hardware would be to specify NEBS certified servers. Attention also needs to be paid to proper redundancy and diversity in communications and power routing (nothing too far out of the ordinary for someone used to setting up data centers) - from what I’ve heard/read, getting five nines availability requires a lot of attention to detail - you did point out that the protocols have a lot of fail-safes built in.

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Your other concern

I’m really speaking about all commuter trains in Chicago and NYC including Metra and Metro North. They don’t have such systems in place. The triple track on the west side of Chicago, for example, extensively runs both freight and passenger as do many routes in Chicago.