As I’m just getting back into this hobby I’ve tried my luck at getting a small fleet of loco’s going by looking for deals on E-bay. I haven’t done too bad so far. As I mentioned on another post I was looking for metal handrail kits to replace the broken plastic ones on a UP GP7 I got a few weeks ago. But I digress.
SO, I went out the LHS with 4 loco’s. One was a very old Athearn GP9, the GP7 and Switcher are both model power and a very old RS-11 that is only 4 wheel pick up and 4 wheel drive with a vertical motor mounted to the truck. Anyhow, I took them out and the shop ower ran them around on his 4x8 display track. Prior to this I had taken them apart and cleaned the motors and wheels to the best of my ability. They all ran well, and surprisingly the old RS-11 was one of the better runners. But the guy did tell me that they all needed lubricated so here’s my question:
What should I use for lubricant. And where does it all go. I assume that I’ll need to put some on the ends of the motors where the shafts come out. But what about the trucks and gears. Do I use plain old 3in1 oil, is there something special I need to use that’s plastic safe or something? What about the gears, is there a grease I should use?
I have a couple of those old Model Power RS-11s that I bought via mail order. I modified them a bit, but they never ran well, so I removed the motors. I later bought a couple of Atlas’ version when they were first released, to run with the dummies.
There’s one big problem with transmission fluid on gears - it isn’t grease.
I use LaBelle plastic-compatible oils and grease. a tiny speck of oil (much less than a drop) should be applied to the motor shaft ends, and a dollop of greas applied to the gear train.
If you get a steamer, tiny specks of oil should be applied to all the drive rods and valve gear pins as well, and you may even want to put a tiny bit on the crossheads.
So what does grease do for you that transmission fluid won’t? Stay on the gears, is what. Grease has long stringy molecules in it that pulls the grease back onto the faces of the gears after the meshing of two gears squeezes most of it out. So the contact faces stay lubricated over the long term. Oils (including transmission fluids) don’t have these long molecules (if they did they wouldn’t flow), so repeated meshing of the gears as they turn will slowly squeeze all the lubrcation off the contact faces, resulting in increased heat and friction, which causes excessive wear to the teeth.
But in reality it probably doesn’t matter much in HO and smaller scales, since, because of the very low loading of the gear train, surface tension of the transmission fluid is probably sufficient to keep the contact faces lubricated over time. In larger scales the loading is greater, so I’d be sure to stick with the proper type of lubricant if you work in them.
Thansmission fluid is formulated for gear mesh and is used in almost all modern Manual transmissions. The problem with using grease in a gear application is that once the gears “mesh” it does indeed squeeze the grease out. Being as thick as it is it does not flow back in and eventually the gears will run dry. The long molecules mentioned are essentially Naptha or Parafin wax that acts as a carrier for the oils in the grease. These are the two basic ingedients in grease.
In case it matters… 15 years sales and service for a petrolium products distributor.
If the gears are neoprene or nylon, they don’t really need lubrication anyway. Still, I think either the ATF or the grease is hardly going to hurt. Just use as little as you can. Personally, I began to use ATF on all my locos a couple of years ago on the advice of a petroleum engineer who used to post here. I am unable to state that he was wrong. So far, so good.
NorthWest Short Line recommends the use of proper lubricates on all gears, even those made from supposedly self-lubricating plastics like Delrin or Celcon. [swg]
Well, there ya go! [:)] I have seen nylon bushings in devices that were clearly not lubricated, nor meant to be. As I alluded, I would feel better about using a little something for a sense of security, if nothing else. While it’s my nickel, I’ll add my support for Mark who opines that grease is probably somewhat better than a less viscous fluid because it will not be displaced quite so much. I am also a staunch convert to ATF which seems to like all surfaces with which it comes into contact, and then stays like that “uncle” who just doesn’t want to leave. [:D]
This will probably sound pendantic and/or abrasive (in a lubrication discussion - har!), but it isn’t meant to be.
In vehicle transmissions, the gears are partially to sometimes fully immersed in the fluid (the planetary gears in an automatic transmission are fully immersed at times), re-lubricating the gears that way. Where gears are not immersed to some extent, the fluid is delivered to them in some way. By the way, transmission fluid is formulated primarily for heat absorption and dissipation plus immersion re-lubrication, NOT for gear-mesh reflow, since gear-mesh reflow isn’t the re-lubrication mechanism. If you can partially immerse your model loco’s gear train in transmisison fluid then the fluid will do a great job of always coating the gears, but I suspect you’ll most likely just create a big mess on the track if you try - model gearboxes are not generally oil tight. The long molecules I mentioned in grease are actually generally soaps, NOT Naptha or Parafin [sic] (paraffin), though those are used in some products. But you’re right - the long molecules are a carrier for the oils (and the additional thickeners, if there are any). And those long molecules carry (by pulling) the oil back onto the teeth contact faces as the teeth part. That why greased gears do not need even partial immersion to keep the contact faces lubricated. Yes, a lot of
Not arguing with you or your expertise. At some point in scaling up, I am sure you are correct about the ATF not staying on the gears without immersion. I will say that I first learned of using ATF instead of other lubricants (in the 1980s!) from the 3 rail O boys who ran display layouts around the clock for days at a time. Their reports were that the transmission fluid as a gear lubricant stayed in place better than anything else they had tried, including made-for-models greases.
In my personal experience, ATF has a natural “clinginess” not shared by other oils, but nowhere near the affinity for dirt and grime that grease has. In every situation with my Lionel equipment where grease was used, I’ve had to clean out the offending gearbox completely because the grease had either congealed or had become too packed with dirt, hair, and other debris over t
Since you’re talking about picking up second hand locos, one point the other posts have missed is cleaning out the mechanism BEFORE lubricating them with fresh lubricants. Disassemble the mechanism as far as you’re comfortable with doing, then take a can of tuner cleaner (Radio Shack used to sell it, not sure if they still do), hold the mechanism over a trash can, and spray the cleaner into the cracks and crevasses of the mechanism to remove the old lubricant. Use a magnifier and tweezers to check the mechanism and remove any hairs or fibers you can see. Then lubricate with your lube of choice (I use Labelle Plastic Compatable on everything, even all metal mechanisms). Any contacts or electrical conduction points should be cleaned as you reassemble the unit.
When I started in model railroading many years ago, the used ones were all I could afford, so I learned early on how to clean, lube, and maintain them, I couldn’t afford new ones.