Nice photos Bill! Thanks for posting
Jeff
Say CGW, I have been trying to find a good web site that has photos of the CGW facilities in Stockton but have had no luck…can you lead me in the right direction? Also would like to see a photo web site for shots of CGW action between Chicago and Dubuque in the 19850-1968 period, any suggestions? Thanks.
Bill:
Great shots of the tunnel area. How far of a hike is it to either portal?
ed
Good question, I am trying to find some websites with photos myself. The only websites I am aware of that have photos of the CGW line from Dubuque to Chicago in the 1950’s and 60’s is the photo section of the CGW yahoo group site and the Unofficial Chicago Great Western web sight. There are a few books that have photos from this location and time period…“CGW In Color” and “CGW Iowa In The Merger Decade”
Jeff
When the Rock Island went under, the C&NW took the Rock Island from the Twin Cities to Kansas City. A lot of rebuilt C&GW to Kansas City disappeared in the bargin. So did a lot of old M&StL.
Was it worth the money for the route swap in and of itself? Was this more a strategic move to block competitors?
Great site, interesting pictures. I don’t even know if I’ve seen a picture of it when it was in operation, most seem to show only trains approaching.
The Rock provided a more direct route for CNW from the Twin Cities to KC plus it eliminated trackage rights on the Mo Pac from St Joe to KC. Was it worth the money? I don’t know. The Rock Island Spine line was not in good physical shape when it went under. The CNW may of stuck a lot of money into rebuilding this line. I’m sure blocking competitors from aquiring this direct corridor was also a reason.
I believe the CNW actually offered less for the Spine Line than did the SOO, and yet the line was awarded to the CNW. The SOO bought the MNS in order to connect to the Spine Line at Northfield, MN and then got hung-out to dry.
Trailryder… I like your website. I haven’t seen too many pictures of the tunnel in its current condition. I also like the picture of the inside of the tunnel. That’s a very rare picture.
I’m going to ask a question to which I think I know the answer but I’m going to ask anyways. Was there any possibility that the tunnel could have been day-lighted? I don’t know if there was ever a reason for the CGW to consider that. I’m just curious if it was possible.
I would like to see the Great Western Trail extended all the way accross Illinois from Villa Park to Galena. I don’t know if that’s possible. Currently, you can go from Villa Park to Sycamore with a couple of minor detours.
CC
WIAR,
There is more to the story. The SOO offered more “$'s per mile” because they only wanted to buy north to their MN&S connection in Northfield, MN. The C&NW offered to buy the entire line which is what the receiver wanted. The remaining piece(Rosemont to Inver Grove Yard) really had no industries and would have been hard to sell by itself.
When the Milwaukee Road sale came up, SOO went head to head again with C&NW on the bidding. Most thought that C&NW would again win the bid, and SOO was making plans to lease trackage from C&NW and make crew change arrangements. Everyone was surprised when SOO actually won the bidding war for the Milwaukee Road.
If the original sale would have gone to the SOO, there still would have been upgrade/lease issues for SOO:
- The Rock Island had a lease from Comus to Rosemont on the Milwaukee that would have to be changed.
- The combination train/auto bridge over the Minnesota River would need to be rebuilt.
- Auto Club Hill from the bridge to the summit would need work, helpers or both for long road trains.
The Spine Line was in rough shape, but had signalling, and was a much better Twin Cities-Kansas city route. The SOO sold off the old Milwaukee line down the river and across to KC. CP has now ‘reclaimed’ it with the purchase of the DM&E/IC&E - What goes around, comes around!
Jim
I pulled the 1972 Moody’s Transportation Manual off the bookshelf to take a look at CGW’s financials for the 60’s (information is contained in the CNW listing).
Like many other railroads, CGW saw it’s revenues slipping in the 50’s and 60’s. Operating revenues hit the high water mark in 1957 with $36.8 million and then gradually dropped to $31.2 million in 1966 (the full year prior to the merger). The operating ration was solidly in the mid to high 60’s in the 1950’s and gradually increased in the 1960’s with the OR ranging from 70-75%, with a 1966 OR of 75.68% vs 77.4% for CNW.
At the time of the merger, CGW’s revenue was $31.2 m vs $313.9 for CNW.
Long term debt for CGW was $16m vs shareholder equity of $79million, while CNW had LTD of $225m vs SE of $435m.
So, glancing at these numbers, it appears that CGW was a tidy little railroad that made a decent dollar, but was facing a tough time as revenues shrunk due to the movement of freight to trucks and other rail related issues. Debt was manageable and there were assets. The problem would have been sustaining any income from those assets as years went by.
Their board obviously did a smart thing by merging when they did. A few years later and it would have been very difficult to survive. Take a look at the very little of their rail system still in place…my map doesnt show very much.
ed
The interesting article about Winston Tunnel in the 1998 Northwestern Lines magazine by Jerry Huddleston states that in 1964, the CGW did consider daylighting the tunnel, rerouting the main line around the tunnel, or repairing the tunnel. Repairing the tunnel was estimated to be the cheapest option; however, merger talks with the CNW ended those plans. Daylighting the tunnel was definitely doable with modern day earth moving equipment, for there is not much earth above the tunnel.
As for extending the Great Western trail to Galena, it may not work. Much of the old CGW ROW between Byron and Stockton IL was torn up. I think most if not all of the grade between Stockton and the tunnel is still in place, so there is a possibility for a trail.
Jeff
My grandparents lived within sight of the station in German Valley, Illinois, and my Aunt & Uncle’s farm was just west of German Valley, adjacent the tracks on the north side. I left Northern Illinois in the fall of 1970 for college, so my memories are likely based more on the late 60’s:
Small grain elevators at every town were the standard. There was also a lumber yard in German Valley that would sometimes get a carload of lumber set out. Trains were long and slow… “freight drag” would be the accurate term. I remember primarily trains of box cars, which were used for grain loading at the time. MULTIPLE-unit “F’s” were common - often 7 or 8 units toiling westward at 15 or 20 mph. My Aunt would turn the porch light on and off as the train passed, prompting extra whistles at the crossing of Bunker Hill Road.
Robert P. Olmstead’s Six Units to Sycamore (1967, reprinted in 1982) and Lloyd E. Stagner’s Chicago Great Western In Color (1997) are good sources for photos. Stagner’s book has photos of those tunnel portals, as well as a photo of the station at German Valley. German Valley had been re-named Mekin during World War One due to anti-german sentiment, but then was changed back and remained German Valley throughout WWII.
Bill
Bill
Bill:
Sounds like quite a site in German Valley. Did they run locals or was it just a single long train in each direction? or do you recall?
My father lived in German Valley during the depression. He got a job on a farm for $5/week, soon it was $5 month and finally they paid him if they could. He basically lived with the family and lived as a family member. They provided room and board and a small allowance when they could afford it.
He recalled it as a great experience. As he said “I didnt have any money, but no one else did either. We had fun and had a warm place to sleep. For six month it was regular pancakes then during the winter it was buckwheat pancakes.” I wish I knew the family name that he lived with.
Also, on the Time Machine thread, I just submitted Portage Jct in August 1955, based on this thread. There were 2 CGW passenger trains, 4 IC’s, and 12 Burlingtons, plus freights.
For a railroad that I had no knowledge about, nor any desire to learn, this has been a great thread.
Thanks,
ed
I just picked up The Corn Belt Route by H. Roger Grant at the library.
Having read several of his other books, this should be a detailed history of the Great Western.
ed
There’s a neat little 80 page photo album type book by the late Phillip Hastings entitled ‘Chicago Great Western-Iowa in the Merger Decade’. There are some photos of the tunnel as well as the tower and yard in Stockton.
Thanks for all the nice comments about my Photos. As for Hiking to the Tunnel, The West Portal is very Accessible. There is a parking area on Blackjack road. Follow the lane just east of the Parking area north till you find where the Railroad would have crossed over the Valley on a high Bridge(The Bridge is gone but you can find the Abutments if you Look) Climb up to the east Abutment and Follow the Grade to the Tunnel. I would guess about a 20 Minute hike in to the Tunnel. I would suggest waterproof footwear the Tunnel area is Very Wet.
The east portal is on Private Property and I cannot endorse Trespassing. So your on your own there.
About the Daylighting I would also refer you to The Jerry Huddleston Article, Very Informative about the Winston Tunnel.
As for the Bike Trail… In Galena there is a trail that starts just south of the IC Depot and goes down the Old CB&Q grade to Portage Jct. I have not been on it yet but I have heard rumors that it will be continued to the Tunnel Someday.
Later Bill
I always regarded the CGW as the “railroad I didn’t know” . I grew up about 2 blocks south of the old right of way through Berkely and Hillside Illinois. I have very vague recollections of seeing freight trains behind my grade school when I was in kindergarten in 1971, and equally vague memories of my mom taking my brothers and I for a walk to watch the line being torn up. It was a few years later that it became the Illinois Prairie Path, but I often wondered as I pedaled along the path in my youth, just what the CGW was like. My dad had plenty of photos of the CB&Q from his youth, but, for some reason never got any photos of the C&GW… unless I have overlooked those…
Anyway, this is a great thread, and I am learning a bit about the “railroad I didn’t know” .
I remember seeing the old CGW line through Dyersville, IA back in the 70’s when it was run as a branch line for the CNW; although, I do not recall seeing any trains. I was told that there was a daily Oelwein to Dubuque turn that ran at night.
Prior to the merger, the CGW was running 2 daily HUGE trains in each direction plus an occasional meat extra on the Chicago line; not sure if there were any smaller locals running at the time.
Jeff
Hey MP15, what is your Dad’s name? My Mom is still pretty sharp at age 86 on all the German Valley folks from those days and may well remember him. My grandfather was a mechanic there in German Valley. During the depression, my grandmother did laundry and seamstress work when possible. She stitched a coat for my Mom out of the cloth remenants, and to this day my Mom can’t listen to Dolly Parton’s “The Coat of Many Colors that my Mother Made For Me” without breaking into tears. That phrasing of “no one had anything” has often been used for how the depression hit that area.
That H. Rogers Grant book is a good history (including corporate history), but doesn’t have a great deal of information on specific operations. It does have some photos. Dr. Grant was very gracious in his reply when I wrote him about German Valley having been named Meekin during WWI (I provided him with some references, not just someone’s memory).
The folks over on the Illinois Central (where my Dad worked) referred to the CGW as the “Cinders, Grass, and Weeds”. Seems like there was one long through freight and one local each direction each day. Many of the locals still remembered when the trains ran on a regular schedule, and there was an oft-repeated local joke about the fellow who approached the crossing looking at his watch and thinking “it’s not train time”. He was wrong.
Bill