I often think why when a smaller RR gets bought out/taken over that the new company couldn’t keep the old paint scheme etc and just add a subsidary of XYZ RR. I look back at all the fallen flags and think we should have tried to keep the names alive and running.
Your thoughts.
In the sixty seconds of time I have left on this computer… I agree.
But then again some of those fallen flags have morphed into some interesting short lines and regionals…look at the Montreal, Maine, and Atlantic for example. The Short Line was on life support for a number of years following CP’s divestiture…but Ed Burkhart has apparently worked his magic, and volumes have picked up significantly over the last couple or four years.
Some flags have fallen…but in some cases newer and better flags have been raised in their place.
Many reasons: operations, marketing, insurance, advertising, public relations, public identity, private identity, legalities, finally putting the “Western” in the “& Western (or Eastern or Pacific or…”), payroll, responsiblities, SEC, STB, and why not? For starters.
But there is a PR value of “heritage paint schemes” as is noted here with NH on MNRR. UP has also painted several units based on heritage railroads. One or two units, is fine, and having them integrated into the whole system serves a PR and employee pride purpose. But wholesale holding on to long gone names is not practical for many reasons.
Well, the New York, New Haven, and Hartford may be a fallen flag, but Metro North and the CT Dept of transportation have kept the dream alive:
I think this is basically what you’re looking for.
Now if only they’d bring back the Pre-McGinnis Hunter Green and Gold paint scheme…
Interesting idea, but impractical.
If using that system, New York Central would have had about 100 different “subsidarys”
Penn Central about 300, Conrail 1,000 or so, CSX several thousand… etc…
Scot
True, but notice that on both of the locos in the NH livery, there is a small Metro North RR logo painted near the rear of the loco. This would serve to keep things from getting too confusing, especially if it were only a couple of signature pieces.
I think in the cases where a railroad that was successful, had a good public image, and was seen in a positive light by its customers should have that image preserved after a buyout. Look at WC - they were known for great service and had a very good reputation in Wisconsin, Minnesota, Illinois and Michigan. What good did it do CN to obliterate their brand? Save some money on paint? A “consistent corporate image”? How does the image of a huge Canadian system have a better appeal to US rail shippers?
I think the whole “corporate image” and “brand recognition” is often a buncha bilge water pumped-out by advertising executives and marketing weenies with a Phd in BS.
I’ve never worked for a “real” railroad, but I’ve been in big, medium and small companies in software engineering for 22+ years, and one thing I think is common in business: Customers are interested in consistent, reliable service. If it works, consistently, reliably and doesn’t cost too much, they’ll stick with it and become comfortable with the brand. Change it, and they’re gonna start looking elsewhere as soon as the slightest problem arises.
When I was young (really young, like 4 or 5 years old) I had a book that my parents got me somewhere I believe called Distant Whistle. It had a bunch of pictures fromt he 70s and 80s of Santa Fe, Southern Pacific, and Rio Grande train pictures. The pictures were pretty much “imprinted” into me and from then on I have alway loved the paint schemes of those railroads.
Now with the internet I have learned that there is only 1 unpatched Rio Grande left, that there are many Southern Pacifics left but all patched, and that BNSF has stated that they would eventually repaint all of their Santa Fe Yellow Bonnets and War Bonnets during overhauls and inspections.
Its sad really… I just wish that some railroads would at least leave a few locos in their orginial paint.
Its nearlly impossible to find a Chessie or Seabaord engine anymore on CSX. And thats a reason for CSX to make a heritage series like UP did, with all the fallen flags they have.
But there is hope for you Rio Grande fans…move to Brewster, OH and enjoy the Pittsburgh and Wheeling…
Where and or when did the term “fallen flag” originate?
Flags that are hidden, but not completely fallen are among these:
The Soo Line Railroad Company
The Grand Trunk Western Corporation
The Illinois Central Railroad
Andrew
Either DPM or JDI came up with the term “Fallen Flag”, from the Wabash’s flag which had fallen. Their Fallen Flag series was in the April, May and June 1974 issues of Trains, with a 4th segment in the January 1984 issue.
I believe the term “regional railroad” came from JDI, on page 25 of the April 1986 Iowa issue of Trains.
Sorry, its not a railroad issue. All companies work hard to creat a brand image and enforce that image for recognition everyplace. Coke, Pepsi, IBM, Xerox, Kodak…how many more do you want me to name. Better yet, how many more can you name?
By the way I don’t have a Phd but I do have a BS.
Read my post - I didn’t say it was only a railroad issue. I can name plenty of brands. The point is the customers are ultimately interested in service, and when they’re pleased with that service they get comfortable with the brand, and may be willing to put-up with some minor disruptions. Change that brand they’ve grown accustomed to, and the customers will start looking elsewhere at the next disruption/problem. When MCI got bought-out by that crook Bernie Ebbers at Worldcom, and they changed the name to MCI Worldcom, we started losing long-time customers quickly because a lot of those people thought they weren’t dealing with the same company anymore. That’s not speculation - those were the feedback stats.
After the IC/GM&O merger into ICG in 1972, there was no push to repaint or even renumber any of the former GM&O power. I can remember GM&O locomotives in their original colors into the early 1980’s.
While locomotives are usually renumbered fairly quickly for operating reasons, freight cars will often remain lettered for the fallen flag for years after the merger or buyout.
My bad. I should have said “it is not only a railroad issue but something all businesses strive for”.
Some railroads don’t seem to have any interest in their history even if it doesn’t cost them anything.
I’ve been told that several years ago when John Snow was still in charge at CSX, MARC decided to do the same thing as the State of Connecticut did. Mayland asked CSX to allow it to paint some of it’s new locomotives in the original blue, gray & black B&O paint scheme (CSX holds the copyright). They were refused.
Better yet, how many built reputations we came to rely on that no longer exist and the name that is on the product today has no meaning for sales, service or reliability.
Now that I actually have time to post, I think we all miss our favorite railroads and would like to see their image still alive. Unfortunately it is a business that has changed dramatically throughout history and most of the names from the past are gone. I would like to see Conrail still around, now there is even talk that CSX will change. You just keep up the best you can, I guess.