It seems to me that signal operations are more popular among n scale people than around HO modelers, if this is true, not sure why.
I model in HO and am hoping to get some ideas on how to get started. An example of what I am trying to do is the northeast corriodor specifically around wilmington and philadelphia.
Any ideas on how to get started? I want to install as many signals as possible (but for a purpose), then build the layout around this theme.
The focus of my layout should be signal operations, everything else on it will be secondary. Any track plans to get started would be greatly appreciated. I would prefer 4 tracks next to one another, I am not sure how far apart they should be, and where to put the switches and signals.
I think Kalmbach makes a book about signaling. I went to their website to try to find it for you, but the site is such a pathetic mess that I gave up. Anyway, you probably ought to study it if it exists.
Well, I went to Walthers to try to find something. I got this:
I agree with you, a model railroad wihout signalling is really half baked. My last layout had seven blocks using the NMRA TwinT detector with a 3PDT relay.
In order for the signals to turn from red to yellow to green, the wiring must be such that when the signal drops from green to red, the following signal changes from green to yellow. This is accomplished by wiring the relays back one so that if there is a red, the signal following will display a yellow rather than the green.
I also used the third set of contacts to disconnect power to a short stopping block ahead of each signal. This automatically stops the train at the red board thus preventing rear end collisions. I operated on DC, and always will, but there are signalling systems available compatible with DCC as well.
I have lived along both the Pennsy main at Ardmore and the Reading at Langhorne, and numerous locations along the New Haven four track mains. A feature of these were the many crossovers that allowed the tower men to switch trains from one track to another. These were usually on regular spacings and the cross over areas were called interlockings because the switches and signals were interlocked by a lever machine in the signal tower to prevent the wrong signal being displayed for the way the rails were lined up. This usually involved intricate signalling, rather than what would be found on a single track line.
You really do need to obtain several of the fine books to learn all about signalling. For four track mainlines it can get very complicated.
Even if the system is non-operational, RR signals add a great deal of interest to a layout. I have installed Tomar upper-quadrant (so far lit but non-operational) on my MR, and I think it gives it a far more ‘authentic’ look.
Someday when I’m feeling electronically ‘brave’, I’ll make them operational, but for now I just like the looks of them. For the time being, I use my index finger to operate them, LOL!
Depends on what kind of railroad one is modeling, and while signalling is fascinating and useful, it is expensive and complex.
I’m planning on having a train order signal at an intermediate station, and perhaps signals protecting a tunnel such as was done on SP’s Jawbone branch between Mojave and Lone Pine. The layout is to represent a railroad operating in “dark territory” during the train order and timetable era.
“I want to install as many signals as possible, then build the layout around…”
Sounds like, “I want to put these spark plugs here, then build the rest of the engine…” AKA, “Cart before horse,” syndrome.
Prototype railroads install signals to communicate essential information about track conditions ahead to the engineer of a moving (or stopped, waiting to move) train. Therefore, they are driven by two things:
Complexity of track within an interlocking.
Density of traffic, either through the interlocking or on the line being signaled.
If the line is a single track and two trains is a busy day, train order signals are probably all the signals required.
OTOH, suppose one double-track main joins a second four-track main, runs for a mile six tracks wide (with a multitude of crossovers between and a coach yard to one side) before splitting off as a double-track main and a four track main again (but a different set of four tracks from the first four-track stretch.) Throw in ten car EMU trains on 2-5 minute headway, mainline passenger and the occasional freight… Suddenly the signal masts sprout three five-color heads per each and those masts are less than a train length apart.
Thanks. I am trying to make something half similar to zoo interlocking in west philly. I go to college right next to there, and use that as excuse to drive by it every few days. At night time, its a little dangerous (bad area), but seeing the elaborate dozens of signal bridges light up is worth the risk, its also far less congested traffic wise at night, so I can enjoy the view, som
“I want to install as many signals as possible, then build the layout around…”
Sounds like, “I want to put these spark pluga here, then build the rest of the engine…” AKA, “Cart before horse,” syndrome.
Prototype railroads install signals to communicate essential information about track conditions ahead to the engineer of a moving (or stopped, waiting to move) train. Therefore, they are driven by two things:
Complexity of track within an interlocking.
Density of traffic, either through the interlocking or on the line being signaled.
If the line is a single track and two trains is a busy day, train order signals are probably all the signals required.
OTOH, suppose one double-track main joins a second four-track main, runs for a mile six tracks wide (with a multitude of between and a coach yard to one side) before splitting off as a double-track main and a four track main again (but a different set of four tracks from the first four-track stretch.) Throw in ten car EMU trains on 2-5 minute headway, mainline passenger and the occasional freight… Suddenly the signal
The PRR had unique signals that virtually nobody else in the US used and they also had a signal control system that wasn’t very common. A lot of the signals were controlled by tower operators as opposed to a single dispatcher. To get signals right you typically need a LOT of room (some signals in high speed territory (such as the PRR through Wilmington) need 3 or 4 blocks, which is 6 to 18 miles or track to activate them. So if you run 8 ft long trains, then you will need 24-32 feet of main track just to go through a full range of signals on ONE side of ONE interlocking/control point (48-64 ft to do one control point in both directions). Since most people don’t have that much space, most model railroad systems are highly compressed compared to real ones.
Thank you. Actually my brother experimented with one atlas HO signal in the past, with block detection. For the most part it worked well, however not when long trains went through, I thought the insulating joiners on the track were too close together (now thats apparent), I would say they were separated only by about 6 ft (at the most). The color changed to fast, particularly when the train was going at moderate to slow speed, lets say about 8ft of train, the green would change to yellow, then to red, sometimes long before the observation car even made it past the one signal.
Btw, what are the double target signals for? (The double headed ones I mean that face the same direction, one on top of the other). Where could I put one of these on the layout? Are triple ones available available in HO (in NJ I have seen them, I just don’t know what their exact use is opposed to double or single headed signals)
Depends- I suppose the most correct answer would be that double target signals are installed wherever a signal aspect needs to be displayed that requires two signal heads (and the same could be said of three head signals, etc). It sounds like you need a good primer on general rialroad signaling practices; I would strongly recommend this website:
This is a very good website for understanding how all of the different North American railroads employ signaling, both historically and contemporary. Once you strat reading this site, you will be able to do web searches for more specific ideas that suit your particular layout needs/desires. One thing for sure: you can’t install a successful model railroad signal system unless you don’t first have at least a general understanding of how the real railroads do it. Plus–and trust me on this one–once you undersand how the real railroads do it, you will have a great time whenever you pass a real railroad signal and know what is actually going on. Jamie
I have experimented with signaling so much I have been convinced the best way to work them is thru digital means, because some installations get complicated, which means I want to be able to program the signal operations. I hardwired a 3 indication signal with physical logic IC’s and wirewrap, its spaghetti, but worked, but I wont duplicate that 10 20 times on the layout. Simple block signals is simple wiring but signaling goes beyond that. Just depends how you implement signals and the layout needs.
It would be cool to put in advance approach indications and so on, it makes the layout even neeter.
Depends on the era and the territory. Probably less than half the railrod mileage in the 1950’s had any form s signals, maybe 1/3 the mileage today is without signals.
Actually if you are familiar with prototype signaling systems, many of the model systems are “half baked” since they function like a model system and not like a prototype system. Seven blocks is about enough for both sides of one siding or maybe two sidings, half the distance on either side and the track between them.
Bud, I went to Drexel U and commuted on the Paoli local for years. A magazine devoted to northeat modeling has track diagrams for the whole 30th St to 52nd St area. Unless you have a HUGE basement or a two car garage, you aren’t going to come close to doing Zoo. I would suggest doing something smaller so you don’t have to make as many compromises.
I fully intend to fully signal the entire layout SOMEDAY when ever that day comes I have no idea. I have no problem with the hows it’s the whats that has me scratching my head. It seems pretty simple electrically to just hook them up to the tortoise and or Flea switch machines but exactyl what type of signal still has me a little flustered. I never knew there were so many different types of signals for specific railroads. For example a model of the UP does not use the same signals as the B&O or the PRR etc. So once I get all that figured out I can give my left you know what too by them. These guys are definetly not bashful when it comes to charging thats for sure.
Yes you’re absolutely right, I’ll forget about zoo, and definately buy books on signal operation, as of now I have almost no knowledge of how they operate.
I will definately follow your suggestions, making its smaller.
A good resource book in my possession is the Institution of Railway Signal Engineers’ Introduction to North American Railway Signaling published by Simmons-Boardman Books (2008). It is designed to be a reference for beginners in the real-world railroad signaling industry.
What I would suggest is building a layout that is basically a big double track loop with one side visible and the other side as many double ended staging track as you possibly can fit. Make the visible side an interlocking/control point with a junction to another single track or double track line, Have the other line diverge slightly and go around the bend to tie into the staging yard. It could be a diverging secondary line, one corner of a wye junction, the separation between a bypass/cutoff around a major city or the junction where the freight lines diverge from the passenger lines. If you are doing electrified you could make it the area betwen Zoo and 30th st where you would have to sort out the freight, mainline passenger and commuter operations to each of their separate routes.
Operation will have one person as the “operator” that runs the tower and the other people running trains out of the staging yard through the interlocking. By using a double ended staging yard you can “recycle” the trains to keep up the traffic Pennsy levels. By having a junction you can have a large variety of signal aspects as you sort the trains between routes.
