Can someone tell me how many TO’s you can make with the fast tracks kit:
“HO, #4, Turnout Track Kit for Micro Engineering 100 Rail” ($164.50)
I know you need to buy rail separately, but I wanted to know how many TO’s in all you will be able to get from this kit
Thanks all
Smitty
The kit gives you five quicksticks wood tie strips for the turnouts, so if you supply the rail, you’ll be able to make five turnouts before needing to re-order more quicksticks. or you could just use campbell wood ties and do it all by hand.
If I understand correctly, the big $ item in the FastTracks turnout kit is the set of jigs. As long as they remain undamaged, they can be used literally thousands of times and your cost per turnout will drop to just slightly more than the cost of raw materials.
I build specialwork in place from raw materials, without jigs, and estimate that my “standard” turnouts cost about $5, plus labor. Believe it or not, the spikes are the most costly component! (That’s cost less actuator and linkage. Since my actuators may be anything from toggle switches to KTM twin-coil switch machines with 3PDT contacts, and the linkages are usually home-brew Anderson links made from brass ball-pen cartridges and paper clips, it’s entirely possible for the throw mechanism to cost several times as much as the turnout itself.)
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
I have tried the Fast Tracks system and although it is very good I have several problems with it.
One; To get to the point where you’re “paying” the same for a handlaid turnout built in the jig, and “paying” for one I can build without the jig, you’re looking at building about 80-90 turnouts. Kinda “super” expensive if you need ONE doubleslip.
Two; Just like with commercial components, you’re limited to turnout sizes they have jigs for. Although their selection is very good, I can see and have seen too many situations where a “commercially available size” turnout simply will not fit.
Three; Time factor. I have been hand laying track/turnouts since I started building layouts, and I can handlay a standard turnout on the workbench with out a jig in 45-60min, so any “time saving” with the jig is minimal.
I’ve been very tempted to get one of those. But, could anyone point to me, preferably in the Walthers catalogue or an other large vendor which slippers to get.
Also, would they line up good with Atlas flex track c83 if I used the recommended slippers?
Magnus
Carey:
Do you have drawings or some other “guide” you use at the workbench to build this turnout? Do you use spikes or PC ties?
I have built turnouts in place on the layout and each turnout is custom to fit the location. I’ve found taking this approach is very costly in terms of time. It takes me 6 hours from bare roadbed to a completely ballasted and finished turnout. Lots of cutting and fitting … I love how handlaid turnouts perform, but for me the time to build one is a killer.
The Fast Tracks jigs are a great idea, but the lack of spike head detail is a problem for me since I use MicroEngineering flex track for the rest of my track. I take lots of photos of my layout from low and close in, and the lack of spikehead detail is painfully obvious.
If you want the best looking and best operating turnout, then use the Central Valley turnout kits. It also doesn’t cost you $150 just to get in the door … $12 per turnout kit is very reasonable. The ties have indentations for the rail position, acting just like a jig to aid in rapid placement of the rail. I do use the Fast Tracks point and frog filing jigs.
I replace some of the CV kit ties with PC ties, since I don’t trust their recommended barge cement to be expansion/contraction stable. They claim people never have a problem with gluing down the rails, but I can guarantee a turnout with soldered rails won’t shift around over the years. The last thing you want to have happen is for a turnout’s rails to move around over time – that’s why I don’t recommend spiking the rails on a handlaid turnout. You want those rails to be exactly where they need to be – forever. Turnouts are one of the highest maintenance areas of a layout if you aren’t careful. [swg]
One of these days, I need to build one of these things on video people can see how it’s done.
I can see where your coming from, but you presuppose that someone already has the skills to handlay. For me it was a crutch to get me started. Although I will order another jig before I start my next layout, if I need a single double slip, I will download the template and build it off of that rather than the jig.
While you may need to build 80-90 to get it to handlay prices, 10-15 will get you to the break even point with Atlas to Peco prices and the turnouts are handlay quality. I thought the investment in money and time was worth the quality and reliability of the 12 I’ve made so far.
Again if I needed just one turnout, I feel confident now I could build it.
For me it has never been about time. At first it was turnout cost, but even before I ordered the jig, it became about reliability. I never want to have to pull up another turnout. EZ Track taught me that lesson.
Amen, SpaceMouse.
If you want the best turnout reliability, you can’t do any better than a jig-built turnout or Central Valley turnout kit. All commercial turnouts I’ve ever measured with an NMRA guage and micrometer are not completely to NMRA spec, so even if your wheels are in spec to the NMRA guage, if your turnouts aren’t in spec – you won’t get the most reliable turnout performance.
It comes down to a choice: do you modify every commercial turnout you buy to be in spec (often a lot of work), or do you build it right the first time with a good jig/turnout kit?
If reliablity matters to you, spending some extra money to get reliable and fast together is well worth it.
I agree with the previous comments - a commercial turnout can’t perform like a well built, handlaid turnout, especially one that has continous point rails. I had someone teach me how to handlay turnouts when I was 16. As useful skill to learn at that age. Evfen with the jigs his father, who was a machinist, made for him it was still a time consuming process. The FastTrack jigs take some of the guess work out of the process and speeds it up some.
Another advantage to the FastTrack jigs is availability. I plan on using #5 turnouts in some industrial areas and as the ladder tracks in my yard. The #5s are a good compromise betwen space eating #6s and too sharp #4s. The problem is trying to find #5s. Currently out of stock at Walthers. Add to need around 20-25 of them and building them with a FastTrack jig becomes a good solution. If you only need to build one of some kind of special trackwork, then yea, a FT jig is no a cost effeicent option. But with the skills you’ve learned using the jig you may be able to build one from scratch using a template.
Joe - Have you considered using the pre-drilled QuickStick and spiking the turnout using the pre-drilled holes? Sure there’s no tie plates, but it might be better than nothing.
Joe;
Many years ago, I “built” a “switchboard” out of soft pine, marked with only centerlines and frog angles on it. I use it for the standard #4-#8 turnouts, that as I said, are built on the workbench, (with just enough spikes to hold the rail in gauge). Brass strips (3) are then soldered across the rails and the turnouts are then either moved to the layout where they are spiked onto the ties or stockpiled for later use.
I too prefer to use a turnout BIP “Built in Place”, and have had many like this. They only take a little more time, as my “point forming tool” is workbench mounted and not portable. (Slow running belt sander with 600-800 grit belts. I use this for “roughing” in the points and frog pieces then finish off with files). Its the fitting that adds the most time, but even on the BIPs, that is very fast for me, as the track the turnouts are connected to is also handlaid and the stock rails of the turnout in question maybe in the middle of a 3’ piece of rail, which means I don’t have to necessarily deal with rail joiners a couple of inches from the points.
I can see where getting one into place, *ballasted, (*also painted I bet), does take more time. That, to me though, isn’t turnout construction, that is scenery as well and I don’t count that part into the construction time of the turnout as the turnout may not be ballasted or “sceniked” for months. (If past layouts of mine are any indication, it could be years![:D]) If mounted on layout immediately, they are connected to a ground throw, via a wire in a piece of plastic tubing and go to work.
Joe, two questions:
Are you saying the Central Valley turnouts are within the NMRA spec? I assumed they were not. If they are, that is very tempting!
Are the guard rails metal or plastic on the CV kits? One thing I really like about Fasttracks, Handlaid, and Shinohara/Walthers is that they’re “All-rail”. There are no black frogs and wing rails. MicroEngineerings are also very cool - even with their cast frog, they’re all-metal.
I really want:
a reliable turnout
all-rail or at least all-metal construction
a good looking turnout
a relatively fast construction method
I’ve handlaid a couple turnouts for fun. As Joe said, lots of use of the file, and it takes a lot of time. (I’m sure I’d get better after quite a few, but the lack of spikes makes it look pretty different from the flextrack I’d be mating it with).
Chip;
I agree completely about the 10-15 to get to Atlas/Peco prices. But when I’ve never even owned a commercial turnout until the ones I put into my hidden staging, which are going to be difficult enough to maintain as is, for me, even that price was one I really didn’t want to pay.
Time never has been a problem for me either, even when working and being on call 24/7/365 for almost 30 years. This has been a lifelong hobby for me as I started at 4 with a windup Marx set, then had an electric Marx at 5, then AF from 6 til 8, and then discovered HO. I come from the “Old School” of scratch building, kits, custom painting, detailing, tuning, troubleshooting & repairing if broken, and very, very little if any, RTR. I taught myself to handlay track and turnouts when I was ten, from an article in a MR from the 1950’s (Ithink), as I didn’t want to wait for birthdays or Christmas to get one or two snap switches. Even if the RTR “phenomenon” gets more people into the hobby, I am discouraged by the lack of teaching/learning what could be called basic skills that RTR “encourages”.
I want my models to be different from everyone elses, and not be like any of the 5000 copies of the same car/structure/loco that have been bought, taken out of the box and placed on the layout.
I think the breakeven point is much closer to 20-30, if you use individual ties rather than the quicksticks. The breakeven is much lower on special work like a doubleslip or a double crossover, since they are considerably more expensive commercially than a standard turnout. There is no question that the jig is expensive, and you need to build more than a few to break even cost wise, but you’ve way overstated the number, especially by then using a doubleslip for comparison.
EDIT:
Of course, now that I have the experience with the jigs, I’ll build the one doubleslip I need without one.
Thanks for the help guys. Unfortunately, I just think handlaying TO’s is out of my league. I can barely decipher what to order from the websites let alone put it altogether. I don’t know the terminology. Everytime I go to these sites I can barley understand what there talking about. I have no idea how people learn how to handlay TO’s at first. The worst part is that I like think I’m pretty smart and handy, but I’m lost. Sometimes this model railroading stuff can seem like another language.
Smitty
If you get one of the kits, it comes with everything you need except the rail, or you can order it with the rail. Once you’ve done it once, you’ll know what you need to get after that. As far as how to do it, watch the vidwo on the website. He goes through every step, at a reaonable pace. You can print the instructions, and work though it step by step. It looks complicated, but each step is pretty simple. You learn the terminology as you go. If you want good turnouts, in appearance and operation, and have a little tie to invest, and the cost does not scare you away, get a kit for the most common turnout on your alyout. I don’t think you’ll be disappointed.
Can you use code 100 rail with the central valley kits. I think I only saw code 70 and 83 rail there.
SB:
If you download the turnout template drawings for both the Fast Tracks and the Central Valley turnouts (make sure you match apples to apples – code 83 left #6, for example), and then overlay the drawings, you will find the rail positions of the two to be virtually identical. The tie positioning, however, is completely different – which is why you can’t use a Fast Tracks jig to make a turnout you can drop onto CV turnout kit ties – we’d have a perfect world if that was the case.
You can also get just the plastic tie strips from Proto87 Stores for $4. That’s what I do, and then I replace a few of the plastic ties with PC ties that I’ve filed to just have metal where the tie plates would be (to match the plastic ties). If you’re really anal about details, you can shave some spikeheads off the plastic ties you removed and glue them onto the PC ties so that once everything’s painted and weathered, you’ll never be able to spot the PC ties.
The best rail to use with the CV turnout tie strips is the CV rail, since the base is a perfect match for the tie strips, making the auto guaging of the tie strips do their thing without a lot of guage checking or fiddling. You can get 15’ of rail from CV (enough for 4 turnouts) for $7 (or $1.75 per turnout). You can get PC ties from Fast Tracks for about $1.20 per turnout. This gives you a basic good-looking turnout with
Joe,
Gosh darn it Joe, you’ve done it again. As in the past you have taken another thing that I just know I can’t do and make me believe that I can. Add another thing to my list of “gotta try its.” Seriously, thanks for you views on turnout construction. I’ve always considered your opinions very highly and perhaps this will help improve my skills. Thanks!
The OP was asking about the complete kit, which is $164.50 without rail and only supplies enough tiestrips for 5 turnouts. The kits with rail are $172.29 and still only 5 turnouts and no way to attach the turnouts to the strips or roadbed.
Now lets add in enough supplies for 15 turnouts, the kit without rail, $164.50; 10 tiestrips, $55.30; PC ties, $12.00; spikes, $9.40; code 83 rail 11 pieces 3’ long, 20.33. Total price for 15 turnouts is $261.53 or a base price of $17.43 per turnout. Going to supplies for 25 turnouts, $164.50 kit; 20 tie strips $99.60 (this is 4.98 ea per FT website); PC Ties, $24.00; Spikes, $9.40; Rail , $40.66. Total cost is now $403.50. Divided by 25 each turnout now costs, $16.14. Even though the price for 25 turnouts costs almost twice as much than for 15, the price drop isn’t as much.
A Doubleslip is somewhat extreme but is another example. The price for a dblslip jig is still $109, not including the point forming jig, tiestrips, or pc ties. Buying the complete kit without rail is $170, but does include enough materials for 5 dblslips. Since the majority of layouts will not need more than one or two of these monsters, that still is “super” expensive in my book.
The price I was referring to was comparing my cost to theirs. The most expensive turnout I’ve ever built, (a #8 doubleslip) only cost me $8.00 in materials. Using Fast Trac
Dave;
Learning to hand lay a turnout isn’t hard & I’m sure Joe would agree. It does however take practice, practice, practice!