FEBRUARY UPDATE> MIKE'S TRAIN HOUSE DCC LAWSUIT

Model Railroader General Discussion (Model Railroader)
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February 11, 2004

Hello again, everyone. Below is the letter I received from Bruce Petrarca at Litchfield Station. It’s worth reading whether you’re into DCC, about to get into DCC, or staying with traditional DC. This is not about promoting LItchfield Station! Thankfully, Bruce is making the effort to keep all of us informed wheras others in the DCC arena are understandably remaining “tight lipped”- AFP45.

From Bruce Petrarca; Litchfield Station

What follows is from impressions, not specific statements and if you choose to read to the end of this eMail, you’ll understand why information is so scarce.

The Tsunami will be a worthy successor to Soundtraxx’s flagship DSD 150. While the final features are still a bit cloudy for reasons which should become clear as you read this eMail. The Tsunami offers, amongst other features: better sound, better motor control, and more features than were possible with the hardware available when the DSD 150 was designed. The Tsunami has been in planning for several years. Part of the time was waiting for promised microprocessors to become available. Finally, last September enough technical work was done that Nancy and Steve were willing to announce the product to those of us who attended the DEALER SEMINAR. We dealers were “BLOWN AWAY” at the performance, and orders started flowing in with a prospect of DECEMBER 1st release of the "1 AMP version with the 3 and 5 amp versions promised to follow.

An ATLAS LIGHT BOARD version was suggested by the dealers and taken under consideration by the technical folks. I can tell from orders that it would be a marketing success, if it can be put together technically. <

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I hate MTH! They sue everbody over everything!

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So…World’s Greatest Hobby …yeah, baby!

Can anyone remember where I put my Atlas block control swtiches???I think I’m gonna need them again…

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Guys,

As I stated on another thread.

Modelers from the U.S, Europe, and Austrailia read these threads! [#dots] It is so easy for all of us to e-mail MTH and let them know how we feel about the negative impact they’re making on our hobby. [V][V][:(!][B)]

We also need to strongly suggest to our hobby dealers to consider not supporting MTH until this senseless litigation is resolved. [^]

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The above subject is very misleading and inflamatory in regard to the actual situation referenced in the original posters letter. Below follows the response any consumer, including Mr. Petracra, has received when they have contacted M.T.H. Electric Trains regarding this issue.

Thank you for your email message expressing your concern about M.T.H. Electric Trains’ patents. We certainly appreciate your feedback for without consumer input we would be hard pressed to continue producing a product line you find appealing.

Please accept our apology for any confusion you may have regarding M.T.H.'s patents. We would like to take this opportunity to explain our position regarding the patents we have received for our digital sound system, Proto-Sound 2.0 and its digital command control system, DCS. In addition, we’d like to clarify exactly what actions the firm has taken regarding the protection of these patents to offset any confusion resulting from online posts made by others in the past few weeks.

First and foremost, with the exception of a counter suit against QS Industries (QSI), M.T.H. has not sued any DCC manufacturer for violations against any M.T.H. patents. There are many rumors floating around in cyberspace that M.T.H. is threatening or is suing all DCC manufacturers. That is simply not true.

Secondly, M.T.H. is not claiming any patents on the concept of Back EMF as has been reported recently. Back EMF has been in existence for years and is not applicable to our technology. It was simply referenced as an existing form of speed control in our patents and some folks misread these patents and assumed we are claiming it as our own invention.

Third, M.T.H. did recently send out letters to DCC manufacturers in the model railroading community who are developing or utilizing technology that may violate our U.S. Patents. These letters were meant to advise them of possible conflicts with our patents that cover 2-way communications and speed con

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As a self proclaimed “collector” of Broadway Limited locomotives, this situation concerns me greatly, but what bothers me most about this situation is how it seems MTH waited patiently to see what exactly the response would be to the BLI (and other manufacturers) offerings.

It seems that they have let the other companies go forward with these products to do a little market test for themselves (who would have guessed I would have paid $300+ for a plastic HO steam engine!). Then when it looked as if BLI was getting a hold on the market, MTH slaps them with this lawsuit. Personally I feel that this was all dirty pull! This can’t be good business practice (IMHO), seems to me that MTH is just shooting themseves in thier own foot and biting the hand that feeds them (US! The modelers).

Anyway thats my .02 Thanks for letting me vent!
Wes

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Well folks it looks like the ugly side of business is now starting to rear it’s head in the model railroading world…We got rising prices…and like lawsuits don’t help cutting the overhead, we got takeovers, buyouts and exclusive distrubution going, poor customer service and product quality, official licensing agreements, good old American model trains coming from China now…and now manufacturers sueing each other over patents…all we need now is Microsoft to enter the model business to make this complete…

Oh yeah I almost forgot…I wonder if MTH is going to threaten to stop advertising in MR if they don’t pull the plug on this thread?

It business…we were just isolated from it for awhile…I think that’s why it was called a hobby…

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I don’t think MTH advertises in MR, they advertise in CTT, and I don’t think either one cares a lick about this thread. This thread is “ants vs elephants”. By the way, I work in 3 rail O, and I won’t buy MTH electronics, so I guess that sort of puts me on your side, and I’m doing all I can to help, which for me is EXACTLY NOTHING. Actually, I do buy Lionel’s version of command, TMCC, and have no desire to add DCS to or switch from that position. Good luck on this one, you’re going to need it.

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First off, Who does MTH think they are? Do they not make modern tinplate? I have seen MTH trains and I feel them to be highly toy like. Second DCS is not DCC and thus they have no case in that department I beleave. Third I feel their case to be totally bogus becasue Pacific Fast Mail had an onboard sound system back in the 1970s.

I feel that given their totally degenerate behavior, MTH can go to hell. They don’t make anything I want anyway.

James

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NO, THEY DO NOT MAKE MODERN TINPLATE!!!
They make a variety of products, including some beautiful, full 1:48 scale models!

I am not condoning MTH’s behavior, but I am defending their products. On the other hand, if you spent 3.5 million dollars to develope a new product you might protect it too.

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Umm that looks like 2 48s to me.

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I have read both the MTH Patents, and the various manufacturer’s comments (though admittedly the comments are third party in most cases.)

In my opinion, the MTH “email response” above is marketing spin. It is beautifully crafted, but just their public “response.”

The meat of the issue is that bi-directional communication is not all that their patents are “crafted” to cover. They may not have sued ALL DCC companies, but in effect their patents are so broad that all of the companies have had to stop and legally “justify” their new products. While this may seem like it is a voluntary action on the downwind side, it is most definately part of the benefit of the broad patent scope.

MTH effectively halted or threatened all other manufacturers who were working on or producing bi-directional communication and / or sound devices. Sorry, but if you look at the patents, and then think like a business, you have to stop and consider your legal exposure. The truth is the products like Surroundtraxx, Transponding, and integrated signaling, are all a natural progression of the DCC open standard that has been flourishing for many years PRIOR to the MTH patent.

I do suggest you read the patents as well. I agree they have a right to patent unique ideas, but the patents are very general and broad, and can be construed by a cold light of day court to include ALL variations of DCC. MOST CERTAINLY they can be construed to affect onboard sound, “tracking” sound, transponding, integrated signalling, and any other DCC or bi-directional DCC product.

This is exactly why MTH calls it DCS instead of the open standard of DCC. Regardless of what actions they undertook, they reached the goal of claiming the technology that is strikingly similar to DCC products that appear to have been in development by isolated people as an extension to an OPEN STANDARD. In a HOBBY, that is considered an artform, with historical connotations.

Is it legal, sure. Is it absolutel

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Mdemt

Outstanding! You’ve reallly been doing your homework! Very well and “accurately” stated!

Re: The letter from Litchfield Station.

It was neither "misleading" nor “inflammatory” as Mr. Edleman states. Mr. Petrarca specifically stated and separated what were facts and what were his opinions. He is among a group of DCC related business professionals that are taking a “very hard hit” as a result of MTH’s actions. Like QSI, he presented the information because so many of us were inquiring, and getting no clear answers for the reasons stated in his letter. (Thanks Bruce!)

The intention and purpose of this particular thread is to encourage model railroaders to stay informed regarding DCC’s future and the current events that are affecting it. There will be agreements and disagreements, which is what freeedom is about. But burying our heads in the sand (IMHO) only encourages more opportunistic abuse as we have seen in the MTH case!

Big Boy 4005 says that this is ants vs. elephants and that he’s doing nothing since this doesn’t affect him. It’s interesting though that the “ants” got an unexpected response from the “elephant”! We all do make a difference!

BTW: I e-mailed copies of this thread to several DCC manufacturer’s and vendors
(TCS, Soundtraxx, Digitrax, Lenz, Gadget Tom, RegisDCC, H & R TRAINS ) .

Peace!

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Great Job AntonioFP45 and Mdemt! Thank you very much for this information. I was aware something was afoot, but was not informed to any real degree! I too thought the auto response from MTH was likely cotton candy. This is an issue deserving all our attention and if needed, monetary support to fight!!

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So, what I hear you saying Mdemt, and please correct me if I’m wrong, is that while MTH may have invented “SOMETHING”, they have in effect, swooped down, and claimed the patent rights to ideas and concepts that were developed, and previously not patented, because they were created as part of a cooperative effort under an NMRA standard.

If that is the case, it doesn’t surprise me in the least, because its just another example of the same opportunistic business style that gave rise to MTH in the first place. Please remember that as one who does 3 rail O trains, I have been well aware of MTH, long before the company ever came onto the HO market’s radar screen. Frankly, I have always felt that DCS was developed, at least partly, out of SPITE for Lionel. Unfortunately, the HO market has been dragged into this war, a fact which is a detriment to the entire model railroading world.

P.S. Please remember Antonio, that its going to take a lot of ants to eat this elephant. In my own special way, I’M ON YOUR SIDE, AND I DO VOTE WITH MY DOLLARS BY NOT SUPPORTING DCS!!! Let Mr Edelman respond to that.[;)]

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Big_Boy_4005,

Absolutely… That is one of my primary statements here. I am sure that the bi-directional communication is a natural evolution of the product that in fact is an OPEN STANDARD. It is reasonable to assume that no one “thought up” the bi-directional communication alone… it is the only way to integrate the digital stuff with the “regular” electronics that we have been using for YEARS.

But yes, most importantly, the broad scope of the patents is in itself the main thrust of the issue. In fact, when you read the patents, you will have a hard time determining just what is being patented. Not surprising, except WE ARE model railroaders with a working knowlege of the technology we use!

Seriously… Read the patents, then quietly sit there and visualize a “command station.” Does that mean Control Panel? Control Room? Computer? Power Pack? Indicator Panel? It is not clearly defined, and that is the heart of the bi-directional communication cited! Talk about vague, it goes on to cover many other issues that if you stop and close your eyes, it is stuff that is not even CLOSE to new technology. But yet, it is definately also about new technology.

By the way, as a matter of fact I have quoted you in previous threads about how this is not new news in the 3 rail world (MTH issues…) keep up the good posts…

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Hope this all resolves to the satisfaction of those concerned. Good luck. As Big Boy mentions, it will take a lot of ants to eat the elephant…and it may take them quite a long time, too.[xx(]

I am ostensibly unaffected, as under my layout are 10 speakers…on the edge are two old MRC 8000 sound machines hooked to the cabs, and on top are [gasp] BLOCKS.

However, under a really aggressive legal onslaught, I too, could be vulnerable, based on something as simple as a 12-step program confession:

“My Name is
Mike…and I have
Trains…in my
House.[;)][;)]”

…that Mike Rowe fellow did get some attention from Bill Gates’ legal crew, didn’t he…[:D][:D]
regards
Mike
…please excuse the levity, I realize many here find this topic very serious.

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Observations of a “Rookie”

I am not overly familiar with DCC having just returned to the hobby after a “leave of absence” of about 8 years:but I have been involved in a couple of patent suits.

I made the attempt to view and read the patents by clicking on the link provided above. The following is the result:

Under Construction
The site you were trying to reach does not currently have a default page. It may be in the process of being upgraded.

Please try this site again later. If you still experience the problem, try contacting the Web site administrator.

Personally I find that the page is currently being modified very interesting indeed.

I can tell you from experience that if a patent is worded as vaguely as some other posters claim, it will almost certainly be declared invaled. I don’t know who MTH are, again I am a bit of a rookie, but they may be simpley trying to get as many of their perceived competators as possible to “bite” on a license agreement without having to actually go to court and defend the patent.

I have seen this very tactic work, at least initially, in other industries. The smaller guys go for the license because it is far less expensive than the alternative. Eventually someone steps up, accepts the suit, goes to court and the patent is declared invalid.

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Thanks Mdemt, I should appologize for the remark about my doing nothing, as the more I think about it, the more I realize that I’m really doing quite a bit.

I walk a thin line with MTH, because I love some of their products, but hate others. I won’t buy their engines because of this whole DCS thing, but I still love their cars, as you may have noticed in one of my responses above. I defend them against someone who esentially considers them worthless, but dispise them for creating this war in the first place.

This whole thing reminds me of the old cold war struggle between the US and USSR, only now it has escalated into a hot war, on a European battlefield. HO is caught in the middle of a conflict that they wanted no part of, the war between MTH and Lionel.

I have read some of the patent material, and the truth is that it makes me crosseyed, and dizzy[%-)][%-)][%-)] I believe you and trust that you are correct, the question is, if presented to the court, what will the judge decide?

Antonio is trying to rally the troops, maybe the call needs to go out to the 3 rail community, and ask for their help in fighting the “Evil Empire”. I’m sure that there are some more people like me that are sympathetic to your cause. I am not in a position to raise this issue over in the CTT forum, but if a dicsussion is started, I will join in.

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Guys, the link above was written badly it picked up a period at the end. This works!!!

www.protosound2.com