Fiddle Yards vs Staging Yards

Model Railroader Layouts and layout building
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I’ve been doing some typical Christmas time model railroad reading recently. I’ve discovered that my layout is woefully inadequate for operations due to not having enough off line staging. In my reading it seems that yards are counted as storage and so can’t help you with moving cars, unless you guarantee to never leave cars on that track. I can see some merit in that because it’s hard to break down and make up trains using yard track that is already occupied-lol. There’s really nothing new here except that it seems in today’s operations sessions we don’t have fiddle yards. We can only use the giant helping hand for our offline staging yards. I have added some staging but also use it online as a destination–port.

I really don’t see that much difference in the practical operational impact of a fiddle yard vs staging yard. I understand that offline staging yards allow for all “the hands on” movements to go unseen and so help create a more complete prototypical feel.

So, my question is–how many still use some type of fiddle yard? Where the giant helping hand can move cars onto and off of an online yard.

Thanks,Richard

2

This is my staging yard, still under construction:

The far left track will be extended another 6 feet, and will be a branch line. The other 4 stop where they are.

In this case, “fiddling” is a bit awkward because of the overhanging roofline and tight track spacing. I plan to put a liftoff scenic cover over all but that branch line, but it will be removeable.

I’m still working out this operations stuff myself. This is a single-ended yard, so trains will return facing the wrong direction and will need to be turned somehow. The branch line track looks to be a good spot for manual handling, after which the train could be briefly taken out and then backed into the staging tracks again. Or, I could just tie up the main and back them in.

3

Richard…

I actually use both - a hidden staging yard for the trains and GHA (Giant Hand Action) to a fiddle yard/storage area for cars. Before the start of each op session new cars are routed into each train via an interchange track using GHA, old cars taken off (that GHA again), and the train run back to staging. Once all are ‘reloaded’ the session can start.

Charles

4

The fiddle yard concept is employed on my layout - in staging. Most of the time I see fiddle yards they are part of the off-line staging as opposed to on-line modeled locations.

Trains that enter my staging are re-staged during the session. Unit trains like auto parts, TOFC, and coal stay together, and may only have the power and cabooses changed end-for end. General freights are broken down - the “waybill” is flipped to the next side and the cars are flat-switched by destination so new trains can be built from them.

I don’t see it that way, but we could be reading from different sources. A yard is much like an in-box and out-box. Cars arrive, get sorted according to where they go next, then move on. They don’t come in to stay.

5

Rob,

I suspect he’s reading where yards are often treated as storage, even though that tends to tie things up.

Richard,

Fiddle and staging yards can refer to differrent things. Fiddle is all about handling cars onto the layout in some location designated as for that, whether visible or staged.

Staging yards can also be either visible or hidden. The tendency when using them is to handle entire trains or cuts of cars. However, they’re also an opportunity to handle cars on and off the layout, same basic thing as fiddle yards. That’s how my staging works.

Something to consider in designing a staging yard where you want to fiddle is making sure you have and outside track or two where that can be easily up front, rather like Mr. B does. He has the sloping ceiling overhead that doesn’t help with reaching the far side tracks, but essentially the same principle is involved once you get beyond the first few tracks.

Those far side tracks work well, however, for things like passenger trains, unit trains and others that typically require little handling to reset.

Track spacing is another difference. With fiddling, you need to be able to reach in and pick up easily. Thus you need tracks whose centers are far enough apart so you can reach in and grab 'em.

With staging only tracks, you can really pack them in close. Once built, a train from the front tracks can then be moved to back tracks or elsewhere with tighter spacing. Staging tracks can also serve as receiving tracks. Then you move the trains to easy reach tracks to be broken down and reset. This can also affect you planning and design and needs to be taken into consideration

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Mine, under construction, is meant to be staging and not much fiddling since it’s not fiddle friendly, although I might do what Rob does, and switch ends of the train - change the caboose for the power:

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Hi Richard,

I do not believe in fiddling. For me it’s not about fidelity to the prototype. I just don’t believe most railroad models survive repeated handling. There is a reasonable likelihood of some unintended consequence every time you touch a model. The more tightly packed they are (like in yards), the more likely. Fingers bend, break or dislodge detail parts - many of which end up being lost forever. The adjacent cars are often derailed which results in more handling or even worse the derailment goes unnoticed until the next operating session.

I am a huge believer in staging, but once a model is placed on the track, my goal (however lofty) is to never touch it again.

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That’s an admirable goal. If you can either restrict yourself to buying no more rolling stock than fits on the layout or you can keep building storage tracks for everything, you’ll be able to meet it.

More practically, most of us have more rolling stock than will fit. While I understand your concerns, running repairs due to mishandling happens even when the 0-5-0 is not involved on the prototype. We’re just able to pick up and fix our mistakes when that’s often not possible expeditiously on the 1:1.

Another way to address this issues to is make good provisions for the fiddle yard. Have easy access to storage near the layout, room to work along the tracks involved (finger space I already noted, but there are other ways to enhance the work environment), plenty of good light to help you size things up to get wheels on the track, etc. Yeah, things get broke in real life, so minimizing that, then repairing what must be is another set of solutions that more find affordable and easier to do tha

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I don’t see this as a, “Versus,” situation. Properly, all, “Fiddling,” should be done in staging, away from the visible part of the railroads.

OTOH, not all staged trains require fiddling, so it isn’t necessary to provide ‘Hand of God’ access to every track. Some pre-planning can arrange to get all the fiddling done in a specific, limited area, even when total staging capacity (in complete trains) rivals that of the Argentine Yard.

So, what do I have, and what do I do?

Passenger staging is all but impossible to access. The only fiddling involves adding or cutting out a self-propelled diner from a DMU express train - handled with judiciously placed track gaps and uncoupling magnets, visible through a judiciously placed slit in the fascia.

EMU staging involves assembly/disassembly of five cars into trains of two, three or four cars. Once again, facilitated by judiciously placed track gaps and uncoupling magnets, and a couple of extra crossovers. The area is visible (window in fascia) and the topside scenery is removable.

Through freights (nine trains, twenty carlength equivalents, plus locomotives) are impossible to fiddle. Changes are limited to changing the waybills in car cards.

Local freights (eight trains, twelve carlength equivalents, plus locomotives) in staging cannot be fiddled. However, there is a cassette dock, accessible to both combustion and catenary locals, that allows a complete local train to be backed into a cassette when fiddling is required. Several of those cassettes are specifically designed to allow carloads of loose ‘coal’ to be dumped, while trains in others can have open top loads ‘adjusted’ or cars pulled for maintenance or simply to change consists. The cassettes are my answer to, “Too much rolling stock for the capacity of the layout.” Not all cassetted cuts of cars are accompanied by a locomotive. I store cass

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No photo to show, but my current staging “yard” operates as a fiddle yard. However it’s only one track about four cars long. My plan for the eventual yard is it will be an interchange junction which will act as visible staging. Cars will be fiddled off and on between ops to provide inbounds or outbounds. But as far as the switch crew arriving, those cars they left yesterday are gone and these new ones were dropped over last night by the “other” railroad.

jim

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[quote user=“mlehman”]

carl425

I do not believe in fiddling. For me it’s not about fidelity to the prototype. I just don’t believe most railroad models survive repeated handling. SNIP

I am a huge believer in staging, but once a model is placed on the track, my goal (however lofty) is to never touch it again.That’s an admirable goal. If you can either restrict yourself to buying no more rolling stock than fits on the layout or you can keep building storage tracks for everything, you’ll be able to meet it.

More practically, most of us have more rolling stock than will fit. While I understand your concerns, running repairs due to mishandling happens even when the 0-5-0 is not involved on the prototype. We’re just able to pick up and fix our mistakes when that’s often not possible expeditiously on the 1:1.

Another way to address this issues to is make good provisions for the fiddle yard. Have easy access to storage near the layout, room to work along the tracks involved (finger space I already noted, but there are other ways to enhance the work environment), plenty of good light to help you size things up to get wheels on the track, etc. Yeah, thing

13

Interesting set-up you have there, Wayne. I dug around and found a few pics of my staging area. This pic is of the “East” end, where I have a small workbench next to my programming track. You can see where I’m sorting through things here.

There are 5 tracks here, then two more on the other side of the wall under mountains on the layout, which you can see the entrance to in the next pic.

Here is one of the two big drawer units that sit under the far end of the staging tracks abobe.

14

I don’t know if this will be much help to the O.P., but I have four tracks in staging. 3 are double ended so that locos (steam mostly) can cut off to the r.h. on the other side of the room and return to the “new” front of a standing train by backing on to it via an adjacent engine only track.

I have one fiddle track on the aisle so that new trains can be built easily and quickly on a more “improvisational” basis. So-a combination of both.

My staging is visible under the main benchwork. So operators can pretend they don’t see it or can bend over a bit to keep an eye on things.

Jim

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Americans tend to have lots more space for hobbies like model railroading. In Europe, but especially so in the UK, fiddle yards and such are often divided from the rest of the layout only by a view block like a large industry on a flat or something similar. Most simply do not have the luxury of a separate staging area remote from the rest of the layout, so the imagination.

A few more comments on my staging area in the pics above. It’s all standard gauge here in these pics. Narrowgauge staging is priimarily from Chama, which is a two track return loop under Durango; each track is able to hold 2 or 3 trains. Most are double-ended, so a lot easier to navigate. My staging is controlled by NCE Switch 8 turnout controllers and Macros configured to allow easy access to various tracks.

16

The fiddle yard is key to the flexibility of the operating sessions on the Operations Road Show layout.

Operations Road Show Fiddle Yard - East End

It is seldom this empty or neat.

During sessions, we have one or two guys back here, behind the backdrop between the east (Peru, Indiana) and west (Lafayette, Indiana) ends of the layout.

While having the fiddle yard between the ends of the layout makes it possible to just swap power and send a train that has just come in back out for another lap, we rarely do that, since seeing the same block of cars come out and run east-to-west again during a session spoils the effect of being along a part of a busy mainline.

Since we have no locomotive terminals modeled on the visible portion of the layout, this is the only place on the railroad where we make up or break down locomotive consists, so operating crews are spared that bit of “model railroad thinking”. Having one or two guys back here during a session also provides someone who can go out and troubleshoot any of the things that can go wrong during an operating session, without having to distract the dispatcher or operator.

Our fiddle yard guys also go out and stage inbound cars on interchange tracks, and retrieve cars that have been set out at interchanges during the sessions.

The biggest advantage we have seen to having an active fiddle yard is the ability to add more trains if more crews show up for a session than the schedule requires. It also makes it easy to consolidate trains to compensate for ones that may be abolished if not enough crews turn out.

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Hi,

IMO, I think the solution depends on the room available, and of course the number of cars/locos you want to readily run.

In my case, the layout fills an 11x15 room (operator in the center), and my yard is good for a max of 35 cars or so.

However, I built in a lower level staging area (accessed via 2 percent grade) that goes from one track to six stub ends. Those 6 can hold 60 plus cars.

So its easy to shuffle trains from the lower staging onto the main level, and effectively doubles the amount of rolling stock I can play with.

18

I do a lot of fiddling on my layout. Every train that goes to staging(including engines) gets rotated off the layout. Also, every car sent to an interchange gets rotated.

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Most of what I’ve been reading is about building the layout to mathematical performance standards. And these “newer” standards really encourage you to replace the traditional yard with a hidden staging yard to increase the number of cars you can move. And that I think is because the underlying assumption is that the traditional online yard is clogged and therefore really acts like storage. Also, these types of layout seems to be more of a point to point design.

Of course if you keep your yards about 25 to say 50% full then you can use them to varying degrees to makeup and break down trains,etc. A lot of the cars on our layout have online origin and destination so don’t require removal and replacement. But in my case one of my online yards I also use as a type of interchange area to the ROW where the helping hand removes and replaces cars for the next op or maybe even during an op(staging or I call it fiddling).

Maybe we are different because we have a lot of origin and destination sites on the layout whereas most are either origin OR destination to the ROW??? Maybe this is another assumption of the mathematical models??

I can see with the longer trains that a dedicated staging area helps. Most of my trains run modern longer cars, so a 20 unit train is about 20 feet long. Most of our trains are between 10 and 20 cars since the passing sidings are only about 12 feet long.

One thing I’ve noticed is that having added some staging is that I need more hands to operate the layout-lol.

Richard

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I’m not sure I’d put much stock in that reading material then. Operation is among my major hobby interests, and I just don’t see most reputable designers or ops enthusiasts promoting the above. Many of us enjoy modeling yard operations. If an author suggests eliminating a modeled yard in favor of staging to avoid the yard filling up with stored cars, that sounds like terrible advice from somebody who doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

The major reason for staging is to allow trains to move beyond the modeled layout to connections to the rest of the rail network. Staging doesn’t necessarily allow for more cars to be used, nor does it always require more operators, but it does allow for a more realistic flow of traffic. If your ops emphasize on-layout moves, staging connections may be less important.

If a modeled yard is becoming clogged and/or used as storage, the operating scheme isn’t making appropriate use of it, the yard isn’t designed well, or perhaps both. My layout uses active staging, but also has one major yard and another smaller one for classification, block swaps and other typical yard functions (e.g. originating and terminating certain trains, locomotive service), plus a still smaller industry yard. None of these truly fill up during a session as blocks are regularly being picked up and moved to their destinations. Nearly all of my traffic either originates or terminates in staging, however, and there are very few on-layout moves in betw