While there are 1,700 railroad “Firers” (Fireman?) still active in 2014, their numbers are declining per the MSN.COM below. My question, does BNSF or other RR still have 3 man crews (Engineer, Fireman, Conductor?) That is, taking this news item to the logical conclusion.
I suspect that 1700 is the number of engineers that still have rights to return to firing if they can’t hold an engineer’s position. When that occurred on CSX where I worked they quickly added an engineer’s extra board position to avoid having 3 man crews. There are probably few if any people actually working as fireman except on steam tourist railroads.
Mark
The only 3 and/or 4 man crews I have seen in the 21st Century are those that have trainee Conductor and/or Engineers. There is no provision for a ‘Fireman’ on the computer generated trainsheet, indicative that the company has no Fireman jobs, even though individuals may hold Fireman seniority.
The only time we (UP) have a “fireman” is when someone is training to be an engineer. On our computerized boards, pool turns for engineers show a fireman’s position that is marked as “blanked”. They can assign someone to it, when training for example, but the vacancy is not filled under normal circumstances. If there is a reduction in the number of working engineers, the set-back engineers don’t become fireman, they go back to being trainmen.
Our road conductors have the same for the brakeman’s position. The position is normally blanked unless they have someone training.
I imagine BNSF is the same in regards to fireman.
Jeff
No Firemen left on CN, although our crew calling system still has the code for them and the ability to add one to a crew remains. This is because that system was developed in the late 80s/early 90s and at that time there were still some old Engineers working who could only be cut back to Firemen when unable to hold an Engineer’s job, not Conductor or Trainman. By now all these men have grown old enough to retire and have done so.
I would note that CN came to an agreement with the Unions to deal with the issue of Firemen on diesels (featherbedding) earlier than many American railroads, I read through our Agreements on this once and if memory serves correctly the agreement was signed in the mid 1960s, all remaining Firemen had gone through Engineer training by 1975 (if not earlier) and normally worked as Engineers after that, only being cut back to Firemen when traffic slowed and cutbacks were made. As always older heads kept retiring and seeing anyone cut back to Fireman was rare by 1980, but did not become impossible until the last of the affected men retired in the 90s/early 00s, hence the inclusion of Firemen in the computer system. I am unsure of the date of the last trip worked by a Fireman but even in 1980 traffic would probably have had to drop by 75-90% for a couple weeks to see anyone get cut back.
Our system also has separate codes for Engineer Trainees and the Second Engineer on an assignment, who under the Agreement may/must be called on certain assignments that will work extremely long hours (think worktrains or wreck cleanup jobs), although I have never actually seen a Second Engineer get called; the hours of service restrictions may have made this unnecessary.
Locals, rd switchers and work trains are required by union crew consist agreement to have a three person crew.Hopefully the UTU will not give this away. With no more brkmn xtra brds anymore, this reduces the amount of mainline trains w/ a 05 brkmn position
Must be a Local Agreement in your area of operation. Not in the National Agreement. On my carrier all are 2 man crews except the ones that have trainees. The Remote Control Yard Jobs are all a 1 man crew.
On the UP, some parts of the railroad still have brakemen on locals, work trains, and some manifests that do a specified amount of work by contract. It depends on the original property and the contract they had before being acquired. I think the exSP and original UP fall under this. I don’t know about the exMKT and exMP. The exCNW doesn’t, the CNW was able to remove the requirement for brakemen and some switchmen (helper, not the foreman). On the exCNW, some jobs do have a brakeman/switchman but it’s at the sole discretion of the company. There’s no contractual requirement.
I’ve heard that some parts of the proposed contract on part of the BNSF (the one allowing for engineer only trains and a “master” conductor in PTC territory) would also have eliminated brakemen and switchmen helpers on that part of the BNSF. (That “part” I believe was mostly the old BN side.) It would have eliminated a lot of jobs whether PTC was operational or if conductors were mandated by FRA regulation.
Jeff
[quote user=“SD70M-2Dude”]
No Firemen left on CN, although our crew calling system still has the code for them and the ability to add one to a crew remains. This is because that system was developed in the late 80s/early 90s and at that time there were still some old Engineers working who could only be cut back to Firemen when unable to hold an Engineer’s job, not Conductor or Trainman. By now all these men have grown old enough to retire and have done so.
I would note that CN came to an agreement with the Unions to deal with the issue of Firemen on diesels (featherbedding) earlier than many American railroads, I read through our Agreements on this once and if memory serves correctly the agreement was signed in the mid 1960s, all remaining Firemen had gone through Engineer training by 1975 (if not earlier) and normally worked as Engineers after that, only being cut back to Firemen when traffic slowed and cutbacks were made. As always older heads kept retiring and seeing anyone cut back to Fireman was rare by 1980, but did not become impossible until the last of the affected men retired in the 90s/early 00s, hence the inclusion of Firemen in the computer system. I am unsure of the date of the last trip worked by a Fireman but even in 1980 traffic would probably have had to drop by 75-90% for a couple weeks to see anyone get cut back.
Our system also has separate codes for Engineer Trainees and the Second Engineer on an assignment, who under the Agreement may/must be called on certain assignments that will work extremely long hours (think worktrains or wreck cleanup jobs), although I have never actually seen a Second Engineer get called; the hours of service restrictions may have made this unnecessary.
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i went to to work on Penn Central in 1971 as a fireman in late February 1974 I was talking with my crew Engr, conductor head brakeman and rear brakeman when
I agree. Beltpak has it’s place in this world and that place is shoving cars over a hump, nothing more. Doesn’t help that no one wants to work our Beltpak jobs so you always wind up with the junior, inexperienced guys on them, which when combined with the usual asanine railroad management leads to some interesting situations.
Like the 3-man yard crew (Foreman, Switchman & Trainee; the 3 combined had probably 2 years of service) whose GP9 kept tripping its high-crankcase pressure warning button. The Trainmaster’s solution (which not knowing any better they followed) was to have the Trainee stand beside the engine and hold the button in so it couldn’t trip and shut the engine down. I’ve never been witness to a crankcase explosion but from photos of them it is very lucky that this crew did not experience one either, or they would very likely need another Trainee.
Or in the same yard a couple years later a crew with a little bit more experience is given a locomotive consist with worn out brakeshoes to start their shift. They complain repeatedly throughout the day, but the Trainmaster tells them to keep working with it as apparently no other power was available, and promises that the units will be given new brakeshoes when they are serviced at the end of the shift. So the boys play through the pain and finally come to the last move of the day: pull ~60 grain loads out of one track and shove them into another. The Trainmaster insists that they move the cars bled off (air brakes disabled), leaving only the by now non-existent
[quote user=“SD70M-2Dude”]
Blackcloud 5229
I miss the old days engineers belong on yard switchers I have heard of a number of times where a remote controlled switcher sideswiped or ran into another train while yard switching. No remote control system or PTC system is going to eliminate a set of mark one eyeballs on a locomotive or prevent that from happening In myho.
I agree. Beltpak has it’s place in this world and that place is shoving cars over a hump, nothing more. Doesn’t help that no one wants to work our Beltpak jobs so you always wind up with the junior, inexperienced guys on them, which when combined with the usual asanine railroad management leads to some interesting situations.
Like the 3-man yard crew (Foreman, Switchman & Trainee; the 3 combined had probably 2 years of service) whose GP9 kept tripping its high-crankcase pressure warning button. The Trainmaster’s solution (which not knowing any better they followed) was to have the Trainee stand beside the engine and hold the button in so it couldn’t trip and shut the engine down. I’ve never been witness to a crankcase explosion but from photos of them it is very lucky that this crew did not experience one either, or they would very likely need another Trainee.
Or in the same yard a couple years later a crew with a little bit more experience is given a locomotive consist with worn out brakeshoes to start their shift. They complain repeatedly throughout the day, but the Trainmaster tells them to keep working with it as apparently no other power was available, and promises that the units will be given new brakeshoes when they are serviced at the end of the shift. So the boys play through the pain and finall