I kindasorta know what diesels are considered first generation but I’m not sure my perceptions are accurate. Just what differentiates first generation from second generation. For EMD my perception is that first generation includes all E and F units and GP9 or earlier. Alco first generation extends through RS3. Am I right so far. I have no clue when it comes to other makes. Can someone shed some light on this?
There are several possible answers.
Bruce Butler on another Forum says:
:From my limited experience as an Engineer, I would suggest this:
1st generation: E and F units and geeps and SD’s thru GP20
1.5 generation: EMD GP30 & GP35 and all GE “U” series.
2nd generation: all with 645 engine, mostly GP40, SD40, 1966-1972
2.5 generation:</
This might help more since it has the production dates…
Alco
http://www.thedieselshop.us/Alco%20Data-Index.HTML
Baldwin.
http://www.thedieselshop.us/DataBLWIndex.HTML
Fairbanks Moris
http://www.thedieselshop.us/DataFMIndex.HTML
EMD
http://www.thedieselshop.us/DataEMDIndex.HTML
Lima Hamilton.
As you can see, there is no certain definition. Another approach is to look at when trading in old locomotives for new ones became popular. That would tend to put the date in the early 1960s when the GP30 and Alco’s Century series appeared. Steam was finally gone and some of the earlier diesels were now quite obsolete in their technology.
John, as far as Iknow there are no hard, fast written rules as to what defines the various “generations” of diesel locomotives by a given builder. I agree with your assessment of EMD. With the unveiling of their first turbocharged units, the GP-20 and SD-24, they aggressively touted them as replacements for the remaining FT, F-2 and F-3s under the banner of unit reduction via increased horsepower. To me that signifies a generational change brough about by following 567 powered units in the 30 and 35 lines. The 645 engine was the third generation, and the 710 is the fourth. After the 710, I lost interest. As far as Alco is concerned, for me, their second generation pretty much coincided with EMD’s. When they began marketing 2000 hp (RS-32) and 2400 hp (RS-27 and RSD-15) models to remain competitive with EMD, this ushered in their second generation. Alco’s Century series marked the third generation as well as their demise as a locomotive builder. General Electric’s first generation as a builder of road locomotives began with their Universal line of U-23, 25, 28, 30, 33 and 36 series units. The -7 line was second generation which was succeded by the dash-8 third genreration which gave birth to the -9 line as fourth. Fairbanks-Morse, Baldwin-Lima-Hamilton, and any others considering a road locomotive offering did not make it much beyond 1960 and closed out their locomotive lines without offering anything to compete with EMD, faltering Alco, and upstart GE revolutionary changes of the 1959-1963 timeframe. There was no second generation for FM, BLH, etc.
Not all F units are first generation, F45s are not nor are F59PHI etc. First generation EMD locos have small numbers like F7 or GP9.
Yet many still labor on for industries,terminal roads and short lines.
Careful! Some short lines still used steam into the mid 60s with one short line using a 3 truck Shay into the 70s…
A general “rule of thumb” somebody came up with that works pretty well is that first generation diesels were engines bought to replace steam engines, and second generation diesels were engines bought to replace first generation diesels.
A good spotting tool - again, just as a general rule - is that the low-short-nose option starting becoming available about 1959, so generally first generation GPs, SDs, etc. had high short hoods, whereas second generation engines tended to have low short hoods…GP-30, RS-32, etc.
As far as EMD F-units, most all FT units were retired by the mid-late 1960’s, having served around 20-25 years. Later F’s were more durable, but visibility issues limited their use as road switchers, so they were often used as trade-ins for second generation engines. Still, BN used F-9’s until the early 1980’s, and the old Erie Mining Company F-9’s ran in ore train service in northern Minnesota until 2001!
No, you can trace GE involvement with diesel locomotion all the way back to the beginning. The first Universal Series road locomotives were built in 1956, and the demonstrators for that Series were built in 1954. The GE partnership with Alco lasted from 1940-1953 before that. GE had many inputs to the diesel revolution that were behind the scenes, but significant to the development of diesel locomotion.
SP and Phillip Dodge Copper Mine ordered low nosed GP9s…The SD24 (7/58-3/63) had the optional low hood as well.The SD24 predates the GP18 and GP20 which could be ordered with low hoods.
You’re right. I forgot all about the F45 being an F unit. I was thinking the F-units ended with the F9.
It seems certain modelers like the old school stuff.
Does anybody model the 1990-2007 timeframe?
It would be interesting to see a poll of the age distribution of members. I am 65 and started serious modeling in the late 80’s. I still had fond memories of my father taking me to NYC on the PRR to the old Penn Station. In the 90’s I took my kids to horseshoe curve, Cass Railway, Durango.
I see an exact parallel with music. My love of Rap music began and immediately ended with the Revolution Will Not Be Televised. I grew up with rock & roll and Motown. I missed Disco and everything beyond. That includes the ES44AC’s
.
I am 49 and also began serious modeling in the late 80’s. I model first generation diesels and USRA steam locomotives.
.
I don’t know the cut-of for first generation diesels, but it must be after 1954, so that is all I can have.
.
-Kevin
.
Kevin,I’m in the group that says the GP30/U25B was the start of the second generation since everything changed and the cab unit gave way to four and six axle locomotives. The -2s was the start of the third generation.
Of course there was no offical generation change by the builders…
If you go by Kirkland’s rules he expounded in “Dawn of the Diesel Age” the first generation ended in 1938. That makes the Alco/GE/IR boxcabs the Westinghouse Boxcabs and Visibility Cabs the EMDs SC, NC, B&O boxcabs and ATSF boxcab and the like first generation. According to him the second generation starts with the FT, RS1 and the like.
I think it’s a stretch to call an F45 or FP45 from the sixties as an “F unit” in the sense the term is normally used. American-Rails.com states that “the F45 was essentially an SD45 in a semi-streamlined carbody (known as the “cowl” design) for use in passenger service.” It had six axles, not four, and a squared off short hood nothing like the EMD “bulldog nose” F-units had - closer to later engines like the SD-60 or SD-70. I think EMD only called them F-45 because the body was built wide enough to have walkways inside the engine, unlike GP or SD engines where the walkways were on the outside. Otherwise, there’s really no obvious link between F-45 and the FT-F9 “classic F-unit” design.
I suppose one could say the GE AMD 103/P40/P42 or the EMD F59PHI are modern cab units.
(shrugs) I’ll just call them by their model name.
First generation ended in the late 30’s. This is my era. What I have been having trouble finding is when second generation put out their demonstrators, finding production details is easy but real data on the demonstrators is hard to find.
Although I had a second hand 4x8 roundy-round when I was a kid, I didn’t get back into the hobby and take it seriously until 1977 when I built my first of three layouts, each in a different home. I am not 65 and have been working on the current layout since 2001. I pike is a basement filling freelanced eastern railroad which operates in northern NJ and the southern tier of NY.
My favorite memories of real railroading were the trips to Burlington Station in Omaha to greet or say goodbye to visiting relatives from Chicago. One time our family was the one taking the train and it was over the 1959/60 holidays to Chicago with a side trip to Milwaukee on the North Shore.