Okay, guys, I’ve been collecting HO scale models since I was 14 years old. I am now 38 and finally have a basement room all to my own. The room is about 8’ x 11’. I’ve been dreaming of a layout for decades and have drawn up countless plans, incorporating all kinds of ideas, but primarily seeking operational realism. A lot of the literature I’ve read on getting started recommends sticking with a 4’ x 8’ oval for a first time layout. I dream of an around the walls layout with a helix at each end leading to staging under the layout. What do you guys recommend? 4x8 or dream layout?
If you have the option, I’d go with the around the walls. The 4 x 8 is a very limiting venue.
That said, why not start the layout on a small basis, maybe one level to start. Give yourself a chance to learn what you like about the hobby so you can expand on that aspect. You can always add an upper deck.
You might try my beginner’s guide clickable from my signature. Take you about 5 minutes to read.
Exuberance says to tell you to go with the whole enchilada (dream layout) but experience tells me that you should go with the four by eight for now. It will let you work on your track laying skills and get experience in installing turnouts, switch machines and what have you.
i agree with chip,why would you start one layout just to take it down and start another.if you can go to layouts around you to see what they have done.
jeff
Lee, So far, you have been told,
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Build around the walls (build the dream)
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Go 4 X 8 (Simple)
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Look at other layouts
John Armstrong, Dean of Layout design tells us that we start with Givens and Druthers.
I’d suggest you start where the expert recommends (givens and druthers) and while you are doing this, take Jeff’s advice and find some local guys and look at what they have done.
Me, I’m almost 3 years into the hobby and on my 3rd layout. 1st was island spagetti, 2nd around the walls 2 levels, the 3rd, modular/sectional, ONE level.
details of my first 2 layout adventures available at this link. Click HERE
I think this is a very common question. Layout construction requires lots of skills that must be learned by ‘doing’. My first ‘layout’ was built on a 5 by 9 ‘ping pong’ table in my parents basement - basically a ‘larger’ 4 by 8. After a couple of years I wanted to build a better scale model layout, and knew what I wanted. That ‘ping pong’ table was recycled and used as the base for my ‘empire’. What I found was brass track/Snap Switches/sectional track with ‘ovals’ was not what I wanted. But, that ‘learning’ experience was invaluable.
Building a ‘section at a time’ dream layout has issues because you really need something to ‘run’ trains on to verify your construction. A 4 by 8 really fits the bill here. You mentioned a ‘helix’ with hidden staging in a 8 by 11 ft area. Not impossible, but a big construction project, and operationally an issue in a small room. Our club has a helix with minimum 33" radius curves and the need for ‘power’ to get long trains up that helix is immense. I know you think that this will be a ‘waste’ of the train budget, but it is a step to being able to build that larger layout. My second layout lasted for 21 years in my parents basement. My first home only had a similar 8 by 11 ft room and I just could not build what I wanted in that space(my old layout was in a 13 by 15 ft ‘shop’ in my parents basement, and was oly 7 miles away. I replaced it with a larger new layout when I moved with a job transfer and had a new larger space. That layout has been around since 1987 as it is ‘operationally’ good, and is mechanically ‘sound’. I have toyed with tearing it down to build a new layout with ‘state of the art’ materials and code 83 trackage, but just have not had the urge so far.
Jim
My first layout was extremly tiny. Just enough to fit a sub 18 inch radius curve with the smallest switches for a runaround and a spur. It never got any scenery because it was built to fit under the bed.
dude go for the around the walls. you can make it simple, no more than 2 feet deep. Maybe do it in modules, like divide your plan into 5 or 6 ‘sections’ and do one at a time.
However, I would offer one suggestion: Start with a diorama. Thats what I’m doing. I’ve got my 4x8 “first section” up and ready to start laying the cork, but I decided that it would be wise to practice EVERYTHING first on a small scale basis. Basically I’m just making a 1x2 diorama with one switch, 12" of mainline, and 12" of branchline (using Central valley tie strips). This way, I can practice laying cork, laying track, handlaying track, soldering, wiring, ballasting, and making scenery.
this way, you’ve got something little to experiment and screw up on before you move to the real deal.
Personally, I’d recommend a small module (shelf size, like say, a 2x6 or maybe a 3x4…something like that) that can be incorporated into the larger shelf layout for later (tracks that lead off the edge of the module). This way you get to practice on it without wasting your efforts (on something you destroy) and you have an up and operating section, with scenery (!), while you’re in the process of building the bigger layout.
Given your situation, I’d suggest going directly to the around-the-wall design, with the following caveats:
- Start with a simple track plan that can be modified into a more complex form.
- Build a little at a time. Don’t try to tackle the whole project at once.
- Get wheels rolling early, even if it’s only a switcher and two gondolas on a couple of lengths of flex track.
The whole, “Start with a 4 x 8,” thing is a leftover from half a century ago, based on the idea that most people would be starting with a toy store train set. It’s a very poor fit for someone who has an extensive collection and has been armchairing for a quarter-century.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
You might also think in terms of square feet. To me, the most time-consuming aspect of layout building is scenery. (Just so you know, I love scenery and detailing, so I probably spend more time on this than most modellers.) Scenery time is directly proportional to square footage, plain and simple.
My layout is a 5x12 foot table, with quite a bit of track, including a subterranean level of subways. The surface is 60 square feet, and I would add maybe another 10 or 20 square feet because the subways themselves are fully detailed, even the tunnels. So, lets call it 75 square feet. So far, I’m 3 years into construction, and about 2/3 done with the trackwork and scenery. I spend more time on my trains than my wife would like.
Your choices are a 4x8 table, which is 32 square feet, or an around-the-walls in an 8x11 room. If you use a 2 1/2 foot wide bench (the widest recommended reach distance,) you could build a U-shaped layout with an 11x2 1/2 foot section on either side (total of 53 square feet) and a connecting section of 3x2 1/2 (7.5 square feet) for a total of just over 60 square feet. Of course, I’m not accounting for windows, and I’m assuming the door is on the 8-foot wall, in the center, but for estimates this will do. To this design I would add some sort of removeable or swing-out/up/down bridge to connect the tops of the U to give you a continuous loop.
Now, let’s look at the 4x8 again. If you push an oval out to the edge, you can use 22-inch radius curves. So, your effective mainline length will be a circle of 22-inch radius plus 2 4-foot connecting straights, for a total of about 20 feet of track. Using around-the-wall, you have the same circle, but now you’ve got 2 7-foot straightaways and 2 4-foot straightaways, for a total of about 34 feet of mainline.
The around-the-wall design will give you a lot more railroad without increasing your construction time by all that much.
Hi!
Assuming you have the resources - time, money, skillsets, enthusiasm - I would NOT do the 4x8 as you will probably not be satisfied with its limitations. An around the wall layout (24-30 inches deep) would be much more to your liking and would last you a longer time.
Trust me on this one!
Mobilman44
I started with a 4x8 (waiting to tear that layout down and cut the wood to a better style) and when I switched to atlas Code 80, it provided a great venue for practicing my skills. Anybody else ever use Tacky Glue to secure track to roadbed and roadbed to wood? Worked great for me. I say build a small shelf layout that will expand to your dream layout (like a 6 or 8 ft. long piece), and when you finish that up with track and wiring, go for the prize. I am in the midst of doing that (sorta).
Thanks, folks, for all of your valuable input! I think that MisterBeasly’s argumentation has swayed me the most, though. The square footage available for the railroad in ratio to room size is certainly more around the walls, but the clincher was the argument about only 8 feet of straight track on a 4’ x 8’ layout.
I’ve decided to go with around the wall, and I think I’ll do it in modules. That way, I can have the satisfaction of actually completing an operable portion without having to tackle the whole layout at once. I’ve also decided to stick with a single deck with no grades for starters. The helix-thing was rather daunting, but I couldn’t figure out any other way to build a continuous running-loop. Unfortunately, the door is almost in the corner of one of the 11’ walls, and opens into the room.
What I’ve decided to do is to (eventually) build a U-shaped layout and run point to point with the short side of the U being staging.
With your configuration, you should be able to work in staging without giving up so much of your layout. There are was of working it in.
If you’re going around the walls, take a look at John Sterling shelving. That’s what I’m using, it’s pretty neat. Not only do they offer a variety of shelf widths and lengths, but it gives you a lot of space under the layout for storage shelfs too. I’m starting out with 12" shelfs around one corner of the basement to make a 10’x12’ switching layout, using what will eventually be the staging yard of a much larger layout as the starting point.
One nice thing about around-the-walls layouts is you can go for larger curves so even large equipment looks nice, I’m using no. 6 turnouts and 31" radius curve in the corner of the L. BTW I’m using Kato track-with-roadbed, I’d suggest giving that a try. I really like it, it’s reliable and easy to use.
I would consider starting with something small that you can complete.
Then you can do the “full enchilada” applying everything you learned the first time around.
Most things can be re-used… electronics… structures… turnouts (if you glue them with a soluble glue).
I have a 13x 13 space for a 10x10 layout but what I have been learning building my 3x5 n-scale layout had already modified my plans a few times over.
It sounds like you have already decided on your course… but I would encourage you to keep your project scope minimal to start.
Chris
Spend a lot of time planning. It will save you time re-building later.
Lee
This is the best advice of all:
I suggest looking at track plans and then adapting one to your space. Keep in mind a couple of basic limitations:
- If you have to reach more than about 30 inches it will be a problem during construction and maintenance
- Don’t fudge on your curve radii, because tight curves limit what you can run
- Keep your budget in mind - For me it sucks to have to stop until payday.
It is OK to copy all or portions of someone else’s track plan. There are some that are operating and/or aesthetic dreams; it’s more likely to make you happy if it already made someone else happy.
I am not above stealing ideas left and right ( after all, why shouldn’t I take advantage of others’ mistakes/experience), but of course they will be combined to become MY dream layout. The larger radii are one reason I really prefer the around the wall set-up. Also, passenger equipment looks much better from the inside of a curve. As far as budget constraints, I want to get track down and trains running. Scenery will be added as finances allow.