First Railroad

Model Railroader Layouts and layout building
1

Hi

I am just starting to get into the hobby. I do not have anything yet, no trains, no track, no structures, nothing. I do know how to make models, weather stuff and make scenery so I am not worried about that. I have ordered a book on planning a layout and am eagerly waiting for it to arrive. I have been researching stuff and have decided the following.

Benchwork - U shaped layout. 159" (26"wide, against a wall) on left side, 98" (26" wide) along the back, 41" along the front and around 144" (30" wide, access from both sides) along the other u part opposite the 159" length. Maybe a track section that folds up connecting both ends of the U. I will have 3’ 6" in the middle to move around in. There will be a 36" to 40" circle on the ends of both long portions (length includes circle).

Scale - N scale so I can fit lots of stuff on it. Plus my father in law has a N scale layout.

Era - no idea. I want lots of industry on the layout. I do not know much about what industry makes sense. I like the idea of a mine. I was also thinking of making two cities on each circle, one with a streetcar line.

Track - Another area I don’t know. I have a 11 by 17 inch hex paper and am trying to lay out track. I am really lost here with turn radius, spacing, and other necessary stuff for a layout.

DDC - not sure. Is there a way to connect a PC to run the trains?

There must be tons more I am missing so any help would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Joe

2

Hi Joe,

I’m almost finished my first layout after a 50 year hiatus from the hobby. Something new I enjoyed and found most helpful was the track planning software A “good enough” version with full features is available free from Atlas http://download.atlasrr.com/RTS10.pdf I’m no computer whiz but got the hang of it quickly and planned about 20 layouts before selecting my final plan. I knew I’d be moving at some future point when I began the layout so I made the entire thing an experiment for various types of construction- both benchwork and scenery). It also had to fit in a garage with a Mini. Some modifications to the test layout I knew going in would not be in the next (post move) layout. My 18" isle entry is one example but My wife insisted she be able to enter the car while it was in the garage so some plans were narrowed to avoid a no win war. My U-shaped outline is half open benchwork and half foam. I found the later far easier when it got time to wire the track. Punching a small hole through foam is a lot easier than drilling through wood. Likewise tree ‘planting’ was easier in the foam hills than in the plaster cloth hills. I’ve been told you can interfaced your PC with DCC but I would rather not learn how. I’d rather control my few geared steamers (and they are slow enough even I can keep up with them). Progarmming sound decoders is less a matter of faith with the PC and some freeware which identifies what it is you are changing and verifies the decoder got the message. That’s about it for my advice but then again I’m only four years back into the hobby and its a new world out there in my garage.

Roy

3

Hi Joe

Here are a few things to consider.
Lay out some curves on the plywood that are greater than the minimum. Bigger is better.
Think about what scenes you want and how much room they will take up? At least the major ones.
How much room will roads take up? It seems as though there is never enough room.
How long will the trains be, and how long should the rail yard be?
Is the space for the passenger depot long enough for passengers to access the cars?
How close to the edge do you want the tracks? How much scenery in front of the rails?
I think I made all the mistakes above. [D)] IMHO Track plans are great but draw or lay it out on plywood for consideration first.

Good luck.

Lee

4

Hi Joe

First off, im impressed that you want to plan before you buy!

Ive seen so many layouts where people have just thrown a load of money at track, layed it down and they then realise latter on that the layout has no credibility, no function and generaly gets old real quick. I learnt the hard way and done the above with my first layout.

My advice would be to get a couple of books, Track Planning For Realistic opperation is one, If my memorys correct, I think its by John Armstrong.

Model Railroad Benchwork http://www.amazon.com/Build-Railroad-Benchwork-Second-Railroader/dp/0890242895 is also another superb buy and will help you greatly!

One thing I learnt from my failed first attempt was also to try and keep track not running totaly paralell to the edge of the table. May sound funny but trains look so much better when they are running at an angle to the edge. As for track i would say that Peco has to be the best bet.

For spacings and clearances the NMRA website will help, here’s the standards page- http://www.nmra.org/standards/sandrp/consist.html

DCC is a huge can of worms and is an entire subject in its own right. I for one would never be without it now and use an NCE system that can be conected to a PC via a RS232 cable. Other systems have connectivity but im not familiar with them.

5

Welcome to the forums and model railroading.

I agree, you are going about it the right way, read, ask questions, read, ask questions…

There are good books on most every subject. If you have a library, they may have some of them. Your father-in-law may have some that would help, if you haven’t already read them. (Even older books can be a help with ideas. There are also a number of good online sites that you can read.

This is a good place to ask questions.

If there is a club or other modelers in your area, take a look at what they have and are doing. Go to some train shows with your father-in-law. You should both have fun.

As for selecting an era and location, that’s up to you. Since you seem to want industries, I assume switching. Not that modern doesn’t have switching and operations, but I prefer smaller industries, 2 or 3 car sidings, to large multi tracked sites. (Though one or two can add interest.) Location, country/city, mountains (Rockies or Applachians)/plains. If you like switching, you will probably be leaning toward a city/urban location. If you like to let the trains run (your thought of a connection of the two ends suggests this), you will probably want some country side.

Read, come back and ask questions, then begin to formulate your plans. Sounds like you are not in a rush, which most of us have found ourselves doing, then we look back and say “what was I thinking.” Definitely a good fault to have, will save you money and frustration later.

Looking forward to more questions.

Have fun,

Richard

6

Hi Joe,

My name is Jim Murray and we’re about to move into a new home where, after 2 and a half years I’ll be able to set up my RR again.[<:o)]

Anyway, I just wanted to say that planning before building is a great idea. My layout is pretty simple but it might give you some ideas about planning. I think that I really benefited from building a very small 3-D model of the layout during the planning phase (See web site below.) Also I used the Atlas free track planning software to create the model, and thence the “real thing”.

I model in HO but “a train’s a train”.

"There must be tons more I am missing so any help would be appreciated. "[:O]

MRR can keep you busy for a very long time…have fun.

7

Hi

I downloaded RTS and found none of my assumptions were correct. What would you recommend has a turn radius for N scale?

I like the idea of open bench work and foam. Not sure I fully understand what you mean. I would think the foam, assuming the hard blue foam from a hardware store, would not be strong enough.

I guess I still have a ton to read about for DCC.

Joe

8

Ha, roads I didn’t even consider them. I really like the idea of lay it all out on plywood first. I was thinking of build everything in sections, sorta of mini railroads that are connected by a double main line. I will differently lay out the main line for the whole think before working on the sections.

I am researching scenes now. I kind of want two city scenes and two industrial town scenes. Not really sure how to go about designing them yet.

Never thought about train length. I figure the more the merrier. What thats means I have no idea yet.

Really like passenger depots. I was thinking, if there is enough room, to have a streetcar scene in one of the cities. Just a small L shaped loop with maybe three stops. The more I play with RTS the more I don’t think I will get it to fit.

I was going to leave space in front of the tracks for scenery. I am designing the layout as 24" but the bench work will be 26" wide. Extra space for errors.

Joe

9

Hmm, run the track at an angle to the table. Now that you said that it makes sense. I think I am going to go with code 55 track as my reading suggests that is more accurate. Since I have not bough anything yet I should be OK with it

I will check out those websites, thanks

Joe

10

This forum has the answers to virtually anything I have wanted to know. Just type in a search term on the right side of the main page about half way down and you will get dozens of answers to almost any question. Spend a lot of time planning and resist the urge to buy stuff you may not use later unless money is no object. Also search you-tube which has a lot of video on track, wiring, scenery, ballasting, etc.

11

" I would think the foam, assuming the hard blue foam from a hardware store, would not be strong enough."

Joe,

The blue foam is very strong when assembled as “girder” (See web site.) and very light. Cork roadbed glued to the foam makes a very stable base for the track.

http://www.trainweb.org/silversanjuan/page4.html

As recommended…“plan, plan, plan.”

Have fun,

12

With an area of about 8’x13’ a figure G layout seems possible. It offers the benefit of a possible 5’ wide peninsula, and a lot more scenery space. Consider the use of a “wye”,or a reverse loop, which will allow you to reverse direction of the loco. Also consider a 4-6 track yard. I happen to have a 24’x24’ HO layout,with oodles of turnouts to industry spurs, but your area is equivalent in N scale I built my preplanned,(around the room) layout in four phases, over a period of 8 years, with dead switches installed, to provide for future expansion. Dream-Plan-Build Bob Hahn Click on photos to enlarge them. The first photo shows the use of Y switches and double-slip switches,to provide access to all 7 tracks in this stub-ended yard. The second photo is a Marklin island layout plan that you might consider. The last photos show a compressed Steel Mill complex,and adjoining ore unloading harbor.Or how about a stockyard and meat packing plant. Or a pull-out drawer mill pond and saw mill complex. [URL=http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w78/ROBTAHahn/?action=view¤t=imghttps

13

I also model in N-Scale. I took about 2 years, 2006-2007, planing my layout and still made changes as I worked on it. Some at the end of last year. Started the era around 1975 then a year later realized that it was limiting as far as engines, rolling stock and the industries I wanted. Moved up to the mid 1990’s. This shows that making changes is part of the hobby even with lots of planning.

Lots of good suggestions given by others. Make curves as large as possible, try and use the largest numbered switches as possible even if you have to change your track plan. You will regret trying to cram things together. Oh, also check out the many forums that are N-scale only or have an N scale section. Lots of N-scalers with the “have been there and done that” knowledge.

14

Ugh. I want to post a photo of a classifaction yard I drew up and get some feedback. I can not figure out how to post a photo in the forum. Can someone explain it to me please?

I tried the insert media but nothing shows up when I use preveiw to take a look. Well the URL in print format shows up.

15

This site does not accept images directly. In order to include photos in your posts, you’ll need to sign up with one of those “photo sites” such as Photobucket, Picassa, or any of the others. Upload your photos to that site, and then copy the picture’s URL, which is what you see in the locate bar of your browser. Many sites have an easy button to press to automatically “copy” the URL to your computer’s clipboard so you can “paste” it somewhere else. Then, once you’ve got the URL in your clipboard, press the “Media” button in your post-- from the toolbar above, the icon that looks like the filmstrip-- and enter the URL into the box and press “INSERT”. The site will then incorporate the URL into your post in the proper way to see the image when you submit your post.

John

16

Recommended minimum radius is 3 x length of longest locomotive or car you will run, 4x length looks better. 5 x length allows cars to couple automatically on curves (like a curved yard or siding).

Length of cars : e.g. 40’ car is about 40 x 12" = 480" in real life. In N scale (1:160), divide by 160 - for a model length of about 3". So 3x curves would be 9", 4x curves would be 12", 5x curves would be 15".

For 60’ cars, 1.5 times the radii above, ie 3x is 13.5" radius, 4x is 18" radius, 5x is 22.5" radius.

For 80’ cars (passenger cars), 2 times radiuses for 40’ cars - ie 3x curves about 18", 4x curves about 24", 5x curves about 30".

Train length affects length of sidings, length of yard tracks and length of staging - deciding e.g. that trains will have no more than say engine + 4 x 80 foot passenger cars or engine + 15 x 40’ freight cars help decide how long these sidings etc will be.

Smile,
Stein

17

hi

And you could also post a drawing of your room, with the proposed bench-work and yard in it, beside all obstacles like doors, windows and piping.

Generally speaking a drawing of a yard is only relevant if we know what you want to do in that yard. And the lengths of your trains, how many operators are present during an operating session and how many trains are running at the same time, just to mention the most important issues.

Era is very important, freight cars in the fifties were between 30 and 50 feet long, to day they can be as long as 89 feet. In N scale a 50 feet long car is almost 4 inches, while a modern freight car is almost 7 inches long. Accepting the 1:3 ratio Stein mentioned your radius has to be 12" respectively 21".

The figures Stein mentioned are for HO; it is not uncommon to beef up those figures. In N-scale a 1:4 ratio, give or take an inch would be fine.

The same is true for switch numbers; a rule of thumb: divide the prototype length of a car by 10 and you have the appropriate switch number. A 50 feet car needs #5 switches in N-scale, unless used in an S-curve like crossovers; then a #6 or #7 would do fine. With the longer modern cars a #9 or #10 switch will be needed.

Since your layout is 30" wide, the possible minimum radius will be about 12". The footprint you have chosen is just adequate for a N-scale layout in the 50’s.

Smile
Paul

18

Joe Beast [:-^]

For posting photos.
I pull up this forum and hit reply to the thread I want. Write my text.
Open another tab on photo bucket or other sites that hold my photos.
Enlarge my photo, right click on it, press copy.
Go back to forum on my reply window and click paste
Bingo, picture.
For me I find it easier to remember.

Good luck.

Lee

19

An idea for industry, how about a stockyard next to a slaughterhouse/meat packing plant. It had several spin-off businesses that supplied the slaughterhouse with things it needed. One business was cardboard and paper wrap plant that supplies boxes and butcher wrap paper to the meat packing plant. They had their own spur to receive pulp and other things needed to make their product. Also I have an icehouse stationed nearby to prep the cars before shipping them. I use a spurline that a shortline services and has one of their switchers assigned to the area. Plus you can create a interchange trackage area to tie in with your main RR. My spur line branches off in three ways to service the stockyard, slaughterhouse/meat packing plant and the papermill/cardboard plant. Also the papermill has other customers to make it a good sized industry to have several tracks to handle the business volume. I have an average of about 40-50 cars that are used in this part of the layout and you can spend hours just running switching duties and interchange. I have this located just outside of the town limits to spread the scenery out somewhat and a reason to justify the shortline. The shortline by the way is owned by the local mine company that also does logging and limestone quary. There is a local passenger service that the shortline runs back into the “hills” where the Major RR’s don’t run and I have the local use the passenger station used by my B&O RR. Just a reason why I have several different passenger trains running on the layout. The shortline runs used equipment it has bought at auctions of bankrupt RR’s so I can use just about anything as their equipment and it looks fine. On another part of the layout I have a dairy factory so you can use reefer cars there too and run express milk trains on your layout. Hope these ideas help you with trying to plan your layout.

Ray