I am talking about a tracking system built into every car as mandatory equipment as a component of our privilege to drive. This is moving forward on many fronts, and when it comes to fruition, it will revolutionize traffic management and infrastructure funding. Technologically, it is an idea whose time has arrived.
I believe it will totally eclipse the current movement to get people out of their cars and into mass transi
In what might be the only intelegent statement being made on here in 2 days, and several pages but just what does tolls and the highway system haft to do with trains . this topic is way off course, and the only thing it has in common is your trying to link trailers and railroads, just my 2 cents
Just those costs alone could very easily take out unneccessary trips without too much hassle. Couple that with automatic routing of destinations and you would end up with a drive by wire system. The question that I’m thinking about is how is that going to effect mostly rural traffic—hmmm.
I think it may be that the connection is through the cost of tolling on the trucking industry—if it gets burdensome then the intermodal system will come into its own—
The insurance company I work for, along with other insurance carriers, has such a system being tested.
It records the miles you drive, where you drive, and how you drive. If you’re doing 55 in a 45 MPH construction zone it will nag you to slow down. The idea is that it will allow insurance to be priced exactly according to the amount of driving and the “style” of driving. (These relate to the risk assumed by the insurance carrier.)
Of course, the insurance company can’t force you to use such a device. They will just give you a discount if you do. The vehicle operator or owner will have to decide if the discount is worth it. I can see it becomming almost universal in commercial trucking.
The train they call Sprint
Trains, April 1981 page 26
Milwaukee Road’s new piggyback trains
( “DOLZALL, GARY W.”, MILW, TOFC, TRN )
[quote user=“Paul_D_North_Jr”]
[snip] . . .
The thread was about saving fuel as a collective benefit to the country by shifting truck freight to rail, and accomplishing this by a public subsidy to rail to create the necessary new infrastructure. Part of the justification stated for the public subsidy was that trucks get a public subsidy, so rail should get one too. As I recall, you made the point that trucks pay fees for their use of public roads, so there is no public subsidy for trucks. Collectively paying for public roads led to the discussion of the possibility of private roads paid for by user fees, and paying tolls for premium fast lanes. I brought up a system that would track vehicles and charge all drivers the entire cost of roadways through tolls.
The closest we have come to implementing this system are several state proposals to eliminate the gas tax per gallon, and replace it with a tax per mile, which basically amounts to a toll. This system would require a state mandated GPS unit in every vehicle that would keep track of where each driver goes and the roads driven on. It
Well, then they’re wrong. I’m countin’ on you to go straitin’ those boys out 'for they get in trouble. Go ahead and feel free to use my name. They’ll sure come around. You go quick now! 'For they get in trouble!
Seriously, I woudn’t expect any Class 1 railroad, or any hot dog stand for that matter, to run a business in accordance with an “Ideology”. (Although I prefer to call it a reasoned line of thought based on years of experience, education and diligent analysis.)
I have made three points:
The market will configure the US intermodal network in a more efficiet and cost effictive manner than any government plan. I stand by that conviction and I am confident that “The Class 1’s” would agree with my conviction on this issue.
If motor freight does receive a “subsidy” by “externalizing” certain costs, that “subsidy” is the result of a failure by the government(s) to properly price the use of their road networks. I offered toll financed intercity roads as a possible solution. (I did not mention “privatization”) I don’t think “The Class 1’s” waste 10 seconds a year thinking about this. It’s beyond their control and it would require a political fight to fix. They’d anger their own customers who either ship by truck or who are truckers. There are better things to occupy “The Class 1’s” time.
The government should not provide a “Make Even” subsidy to the railroads. As in; “They subsidize the truckers so they should also subsidize the railroads to make things even.” I disagree with this. Transportation uses our resouces (such as fuel) and subsidizing transportation causes the use
After reading this thread I have a few points to make. 1 most OTR trucks get between 6-8 MPG going down the road depending on lad and trailer type. Van style like reefers and dry box get better than a Flatbed or Tanker trailer. As to Making all the Interstates Tollways will never happen. Why the trucks would shut down for that so fast your head would spin. You are aware that the Normal Fuel and Road tax bill for a Otr truck that travels 100K miles a year is over 35,000 year. Greyhounds why you only get dinged for 50cents is simple IPASS the box you have gives a DISCOUNT only to CARS. However if you drive a truck you pay the price that IL Tollway Auth says that at that time you need to pay with no discount.
The PA Pike was expensize 10 years ago for trucks and is even worse today. Ask Ohio what happened when they raised their prices in the 90’s to pay for adding a 3rd lane 80% of drivers that would have taken the OH TP before jumped off and ran across 30 or 20 across Ohio instead. Indiania is having the same problem now.
Ed, thanks for weighing in with your viewpoint - exactly what I was hoping for !
That works out to about 35 cents per mile. Fuel - which includes those fuel taxes again - would be around 50 cents per mile, ‘depending’. So the taxes don’t seem too outrageous to me compared to that.
What’s a typical ‘per mile’ rate these days ? I paid between $3 and $4 about 18 months ago for 3 very light 1-way loads from Pittsburgh to Allentown, so I’m thinking it is between
If that ever occured look for a Nationwide SHUTDOWN. OTR Trucking companies and Drivers are tired of being looked at like a Freaking ATM for the states to fix their Budgets. Everyone is aware how little Food Gasoline and other Supplies the Major Cities have on hands correct. NYC Chicago Boston Philly Atlanta Dallas and Denver all have less than a week of USABLE Food supplies. The Gas supply is less than 4 days. You can refine it all you want however without the trucks hauling it to the stations your screwed. Here is a clue on how tight Grocery Stores run Albertsons nationwide has a 2 day turnaround on all fresh meats and produce in the warehouses frozen is one week. That give you a clue how JIT food is in this nation. More than once I would deliver to a Warehouse a load of Strawberries and see them pulled off my trailer and be put on the trailers next to mine going to the stores.
Why would the trucks shut down?
What I have described as the new mileage tax system brought about by charging tolls everywhere you drive is not intended to be a tax increase. In other words, it is not adding tolls on top of the road taxes you already pay, but rather, it is replacing road taxes with tolls that vary according to the value of the roadway driven on. The reason this is being proposed is not to acquire more revenue. It is being proposed as a remedy for declining fuel tax revenue that is occurring because of the trend of increasing gas mileage with cars.
The intent is to capture the same amount of tax revenue by shifting the tax from gallons of gas to miles driven. Ten years ago, this idea would have required a toll way structure with tollbooths on all roads in order to keep track of where people drive. Today, GPS is available to keep track of where people drive. So, nothing needs to be added to the roads.
However, a lot of people perceive this t
[banghead]Right now the Trucking Industry as a WHOLE as an Operational Ratio of 98% that means 98 cents out of Every dollar goes to pay Taxes Fuel Maintance Wages Replacement costs for the current system. Yet people in power like State and Federal Goverments keep ramming costly regulations that US Counsumers refuse to pay for. You are aware that 2 years ago the fuel requirements were changed for the OTR trucking industry to ULSD from LSD doing that has cost over 20 BILLION in breakdown costs. Then now the EPA has mandated Diesel Particulate filters that will add another 5K a year in Maintance costs PER TRUCK just for the Filters not including the DPF Fluid that is prone to Freezing and is an Enviromental Hazard in its own right. Then there are Idiots that think forcing a driver to sleep with NO HEAT when it is 30 degrees is fine they pass laws that make it ILLEGAL TO TREAT A DOG THAT BAD BUT A MAN DOING HIS JOB HAS TO FREEZE. Then the other extreme is it can be 110 and they want you to sleep in a metal box with NO AIR CONDITIONING FOR 10 hours. BTW this is California rules which will more than likely be made Federal to SAVE THE PLANET.
Yet CARB the idiots in CA that created that No Idle law peroid the guy who wrote the Regulations and claimed to have a PHD in Enviromental Sciece was not even a Colledge Graduate. These idiots are the same ones that have dried out the Central Valley in CA to save a 2 inch Smelt costing the State of CA 4 Billion in Revenue this year ALONE. Add all the extra costs in and you can see why the truckers will Shut Down they are sick and tired of being shoved around. Sooner or later the OTR truckers will push back and when they do it will be bloody. We put up with Lane Restrictions Ambulance Chasing Attys Speed restrictions hell I can not name all of the crap the Goverment has done to us in the name of so called Saftey. Yet we meaning OTR truckers ask for all drivers inv
One would be very hard pressed to offer truck service levels via rail… there are certainly cost advantages to rail in some select lanes…but you give up service levels and flexibility. Over the road service is often spectacular…overnight door to door delivery to points within a 1000 miles radius of loading is quite common… and often the expected norm. And trucks have also benefitted from technological advances which have improved fuel economy and decreased operating cost. Mandating one mode over another would be the wrong approach… let the market sort it out…we live in a free market so that’s what’s supposed to happen. No doubt fuel cost, labour shortages, and environmental factros will all come into play over the next decade and beyond.
I did a very quick poll of greyhounds Idea of making all interstates tollways with no recourse and then not raising the rates to cover the shippers that use OTR trucking would not pay for the increased costs we that are in that Industry KNOW THAT THEY WOULD NOT. Here was what the drivers stated 100% STATED IF THE GOVERMENT DID THIS THAT THEY WOULD SHUT DOWN AND SIT AND SHOW THE IDIOTS IN CONGRESS AND THE STATEHOUSES HOW MUCH POWER THE TRUCKERS ACTUALLY HAVE. We could shut down the RR industry also why No Spare Parts No fuel for cars so people can not GET TO WORK.
The ton mile tax is used in NY OR and WA and the companies HATE IT. My last trip into NY was 560 miles total length cost my company close to 700 dollars in HUT this was in 1999 they have raised it higher since then. Now that Idiot in the Statehouse is wanting to BAN trucks from all routes but the Thruway and Rt2 in plus any interstates unless loading or unloading. He states it is for saftey however a memo was leaked it states it is for REVENUE.
I’ve been speculating as to the desires posted in this thread to make some/all highways toll roads? Why? If the desire is to make it user fee-based, why change the system in place that already takes in to account miles driven, weight, etc. - the stated goals - at the expense of installing new devices to do the same thing that fuel taxes already do? Fuel taxes also provide an incentive for greater fuel efficiency, which would seem to be a worthwhile goal.
If so, why not simply raise the tax per gallon to make up for the shortfall? Or if you don’t want to add a burden on truckers, etc., then adjust rates so there is a differential between commercial vehicles and private.
Of course when Smith wrote that, the only way a user fee could be charged was the method used for 100’s of years - tolls - on roads and rivers. There was no fuel to tax other than oats and hay. Once fuel-burning vehicles were developed for the roads, it became (and remains) much easier to simply tax the fuel.
The biggest problem here in California is that new emission laws will take most trucks off the road in late 2010 and early 2011. The companies are screaming they do not have the money in these tough economic times to comply with the new laws. They propose stretching the laws out to 2015-16 to give them more time. They also are proposing that they be allowed to increase weight to 120,000 lbs. on the major freeways. And for the first time that I can remeber the politicians are listening and just may grant the weight increases. This will certainly put a dent in rail traffic in California.
The other part of the equation is what about out of State trucks will they have to comply with the new California emission standards, The answer is yes which should bring a flood of new business to BNSF and UP hauling trailers in and out of California. This will put many truckers out of business or else they are going to have to meet the California emission laws. I personally think there will be tractor rental places in Oregon, Nevada, and Arizona for truckers to haul into California depending on the rental price. That will just add additional costs for the consumer. I think many truckers will go out of business and the RRS will have more business than they can handle.
Al - in - Stockton
Trouble is Al 99% of all Produce grown in CA leaves CA the day it is PICKED and less than 3 days later it is in the Warehouse that ordered it. There is NO WAY IN HELL In State trucks can carry all the produce to out of state transload points to reload to trucks that will carry it to the final points. CARB and you know who I am talking about screwed the big puppy dog here. Especially with their mandating retrofitting all reefer units to ULEV standards. Each reefer unit costs 50K to replace plus you have to have the tractor to pull it at 130K each then the crap CARB wants to reduce drag at 20K that only save 4-5K over the life of the trailer.
Everyone wonders why Truckers are about to explode and shutdown it is IDIOTS that run CARB and PATT and CRASH and other groups. Are you aware that for the 6th time in less than 10 years the FMCSA has been forced to rewrite the HOS regulations because some Ambulance chasing Atty won an injunction against the ones they spent millions of dollars to write. For 70 years we had the same ones now we are going to go what is next. EPA said engines that could get 12 MPG and they did going down the road produced to much CO2 so they were forced to redo the computers and we saw MPG drop to 6 if we were lucky all of this is in the last 7 YEARS. The Goverment and so called Saftey groups were all they are is Lawyers against trucks that what they want is the Highways to be free for cars to run 100 MPH and yet have the trucks on the side hidden from view.