I am in the process of putting a layout together in my basement that is not finished and will be in an area of roughly 12’x20’ give or take. The layout is not done on paper but trying to decide on whether or not to use plywood or foam as a base. I am modeling my layout based on a CSX midwest line. Most of the line is flat and doesnt have much terrain to it.
So with this would I be better to just use plywood and model on it or foam?
Thanks
Brad
Brad
If the layout is basically flat, foam (over 1/4" luan plywood) would work with either L-girder or grid benchwork. The plywood adds some strength, but mainly serves to give you a place to attach things too. Downside of foam is that if it gets too thick under the roadbed under table switch machines become more difficult.
If you do need to change elevations, the Woodland scenic inclines appear to be a good alternative to trying to “cookie cutter” the foam.
Alan
Thanks for the reply Alan. I plan on doing this on a benchwork type plan as of now that way it might be easier to move later. I do plan on being in this house atleast another 15-18 more years before we will have to downsize. Most of my switches will be mounted under table because of $$. Would love to have Tortoise switchs but to rich for my blood right now.
If I use foam how think would I need to go before the under table switches become a problem? I may have 1 or 2 grade changes due to track going over a road or something but I think I could use the Woodland inclines you mention for that. I am leaning towards just a plywood base and then if I do have any elevation changes I would use the inclines.
Just go with the foam, unless you are using white foam you can usually attach right to the foam (and if using the white you can make little ply squares to mount things to ( I use this approach for my ground throws). I have done layouts in the past with ply and just reworked a yard that was laid on ply and all the while I wished it was foam. Example: I wanted to run a feeder wire so I had to run a real drill in the ply (foam I still used a drill but my hand was the power). Just in soldering the feeder wires foam is better, it tends to close in some and hold the wire while you solder, in the ply no hold so wrong move and feeder moved out of alignment. Foam you tend to caulk the cork or whatever and the track to that, I have had a change in both areas, foam, easy pry-up, no loss of track, ply lost about half the track (now that was direct on ply). Elevations are easier on foam (now this would not be the case except for WS risers). Changes to things are no problem with foam but can be on ply. Most people who still use ply say you can’t put weight on foam, you just can’t put as much (had a friend visit who has some heath issues and he used the layout to support his weight in the 280’s lbs., didn’t want to say anything so went to see what damage was done after he left, none.
rrebell
I am hesitant to use foam because I still have 2 boys that are under 5. Now by the time I get to getting the benchwork done, they might be a year older so that is something to consider. I can see your points as to using foam as far as saving track and being able to do scenic grades with it but durability right now would be a bid deal with 2 young boys.
Now if I decide to go with foam how think can I go if I use under the table throws? I have used turnouts that have the throws mounted on the side but that to me looks a little non-realistic. Also what kind of foam would be good for this?
Foam would definitely be cheaper than plywood but like I said durability has me concerned. Although still not ruling out foam.
I’ve got 2" blue foam over 3/8" plywood. My layout is sectional, that is 2’ X 4’ or 8’ sections bolted together. The frame is an open box of 1X4 lumber so the plywood makes it rigid. I’m thinking of using thinner foam for future expansion because 2" is 26 feet in N scale and I don’t think I really need that much depth for scenery. I’d rather build up than carve down. As for switch machines, my Atlas turnouts have the attached actuators at their sides. Sure it doesn’t look prototypical, but it doesn’t really bother me. For my Peco turnouts I carved a hole in the foam to bury the switch machine in. Hmmmmm, there’s a reason to keep with the 2" foam. I’ve got some Micro Mart Switch Tender stall motor turnout controls and they operate quite well through the layout by substituting thicker wire for the ones supplied. The wire they supply isn’t long enough to reach through the foam anyway. I haven’t used the Tortoise, but I would imagine that with a thicker actuating wire they would be okay too. As someone else pointed out, the plywood gives me a good sturdy place to attach things like the Switch Tender brackets, terminal strips for the wiring and tiedowns for the wiring.
I’m sure someone else here has better information than I, but based on my reading, most of the under table machines and manual throws can work through 2in of foam or more. Depends on the stiffness of the wire used (and hole size). For instance, check out the Blue Point manual turnout controls. Standard Tortoise machines work up to 1in or so (.025 wire; thicker wire can be substituted for extra length).
Bob Adams offered a simple mounting method for Tortoise machines (see http://www.trains.com/mrr/default.aspx?c=a&id=870 )
I began with foam for the first section of my layout but since have switched to plywood for the remaining sections. The advanage of foam is its light weight but if portability is not a concern, I don’t see that as much of an advantage. Undermount switch machines are a problem and foam will limit your options. They is the biggest problem I see with foam. I like having a hard surface to securely attach things to.
I continue to use foam for nearly vertical geological features, such as rock faces or tunnel approaches. For slopes, I think there are much better options than the foam wedding cake method.
The only example of sheet-foam application in Kalmbach’s 2002 book Basic Model Railroad Benchwork is on top of a hollow core door rathern than open framework. The foam core allows below-track features not possible when a door is used. With open framework, there is no need for the foam because plywood can be cut away and with cuts allows for elevating and depressing the railroad grade easily and smoothly.
My impression is that many model railroaders have a “knee-jerk reaction” to build their railroad empire based on a solid table top. (“Hey, that’s what my boyhood Lionel train set-up had.”) However, if not building a door-based or pre-made table layout but instead using open framework such as L-girder and box-frame construction, there is no good reason to lay foam sheet over plywood sheet. That is a redundancy of material. There is the cost of two materials rather than one, with the problems introduced by extra/very thick subroadbed.
For me, use of foam board for a track base is to be limited to small dioramas and light-weight, portable modules, sans the use and weight of a redundant plywood base.
Mark (who never had a boyhood Lionel train set-up, table-top or otherwise)
Thanks for all the reply’s and inputs guys. I think I am going to go with plywood as of now. I will probably go with the box-frame work and have it in sections that way if my wife and I move I can transport it. Probably use bolts on the legs that way I can keep the table top in tack and carry it out of the basement with the legs detached. Like I said I dont have any grades in the layout as of yet but I can go up with foam or go down by cutting out some plywood.
Thanks again.
before you make that decision, get a peice of foam and see how durable it is around the boys. you could do up a little timesaver that you could store on the wall.
I also use 1"-2" pink foam over 1/4" ply… I can’t comment on the undertable throws, but as for strength… Its tough. I’ve climbed all over it and I weight about 175lbs… I just lay a small piece of ply under my knees so I don’t leave indentations. The foam really dampens the sound of the loco and cars on the rails. I’d be curious to know what it sounds like without the foam and just plywood with roadbed on top. Good luck on your future build.
Okay gents, I was just at a convention here in town and I asked the same question about foam or plywood and two people from the clubs with modular layouts on display told me they use plywood because the foam causes the sound of the rails to amplify and sound unnatural. I would think foam would absorb sound. Does anybody know for sure, or do I test it out? I see that some of the previous posts says it absorbs.
I would also think that if you attach anything to the plywood it will create a path to the foundation and will cause sound to reverberate, whereas attachments in foam will absorb.
Second, I will need to step over/on/above/etc my layout, and therefore am also concerned about what you were saying about leaving dents and all in the foam…does anybody know of a way of reaching across a layout without stepping on it? I think I saw on some goofy infomercial once guys hawking a step ladder that acts like a scaffolding without the other leg…one leg, or maybe it looked like a letter C.
Thanks.
p.s…I am assuming, and perhaps I shouldn’t, that we are talking about the pink or blue foam insulation they use on houses and that you buy in various sized sheets at the hardware store?
I am no expert by any means, but I would have to agree with the other posters in this thread that the foam would absorb the noise. But that is my $.02.
I am going to go plywood and then if I have to I can cut out any creeks or anything like that.
I am wishing I could pay someone to come and wire it for me when I get the track laid. That is going to be my biggest downfall, is electricity.
My layout has the foam over plywood and it definatly dampens sound… But I do have an add-in section that doesn’t have plywood under the foam and it does amplify all sounds… So I would have to say that the combo of foam over ply does do the trick… Of course this method just doesn’t work for everybodies needs.
Micro-Mark sells it. It’s called “The Topside Creeper.” Go to their web site and enter “topside creeper” into the search.
That’s it fellas…I knew I could count on you guys…it’s the foam AND the plywood, foam over the plywood, that absorbs the sound. I know for a fact the plywood alone produces a very unnatural sound (to my ears) because that’s what I used on my old (now torn apart) layout. I wanted to use foam alone, but as Mike, Captain in Charge, AJP Logging RR, says, foam alone amplifies the sound on his layout. I suspect it’s acting like the skin on drum would of course. I’m rebuilding my freight yard first, so I’ll use this foam over plywood method there and see how it goes.
…and I’ll check out the creepy crawler thing.
Thanks all.
and by the way if you find somebody to wire your layout for you send him up to Denver.
Didn’t you listen to your mothers when they told you not to build a layout not all in reach of an arm’s length? [:I]
Mark
Nope. All my mother told me was to make sure I wore clean underwear in case I ever got into an accident. [:P]
But that Topside Creeper sure allows me to work on my mountains, LOL! Besides, I can rent it out to my neighbors when they need to work on their trucks.
Hey, the rental money got me that F-5 at the train show, this year! [:-^]
Tom [:D]
I tried the extruded foam route, spent the last couple of days tearing it out as I now have a new found hatred for the stuff.
It’s expensive, it does resonate sound not absorb it as many think ,either material should have roadbed under the track anyway. Plywood is definitely more durable and it doesn’t dent like extruded foam.I have seen some guys do some really nice scenery with extruded foam but I have also seen a heck of a lot of scenery done with hard shell as well and at a lot less cost.
As far as a Top Side creeper goes, do a web search fro places that sell truck tool or equipment. I purchased mine for almost $100 less then Micormark wanted for it, plus free shipping and no sales tax as their right up the road from me.
For me the foam is subject to too many things that can go wrong. Don’t dare try and make a minor repair to a structure with any type of C/A if your using foam. You’ll see your layout scenery get eaten alive right before your eyes.
Depending on the size of your layout you can use 3/4" birch plywood to make all your subroadbed and even rip standard pine plywood into 1"x4" lengths for your bench work. The benefits less expensive in the long run then using dimensional 1’x4" pieces of pine etc. straighter have you picked up a “1x4” in Lowes or Home Depot lately then you’ll know what I’m talking about.: Lastly it is a heck of a lot stronger then dimensional lumber
Use 2x4’s for legs and you’ll be able to kneel on the bench work to get to hard to reach places if you want.