FORUM CLINIC: 12 years using DCC - SIGNIFICANT NEW INFO!

Model Railroader Electronics and DCC
21

Let me also add that if you prefer some other method than DCC to run turnouts and signals and you use all wireless throttles, then you don’t need to run a throttle bus around your layout at all.

This is the option I’ve chosen. My original Lenz DCC system used an X-Bus throttle bus, which I routed around the entire layout along the fascia. When I switched to EasyDCC all wireless in 2000, I removed the throttle bus completely. Now all my operators just grab a wireless throttle, dial up their loco lashup, and go!

No hunting for a place to plug in … just run your train and have fun. Full wireless, with no need to plug anything in anywhere, is the ultimate as far as I’m concerned.

22

Joe,

As far as the programming track. After watching several folks/clubs make a service track in the engine terminal the programming track(usually with a DPDT switch to switch it between service track and programming track - I would never use that solution. Someone will leave it set for program track, then run an engine into it and decoder setting seem to get scrambled! Our LHS did this on their test track layout, and blew decoder settings on 3 BLI engines in a row. The fix was to ‘reset’ each of the decoders. Unpredictable results can occur(and do when you short across the gap between the layout and the programming track). I very carefully pick up my engines and put them on my dedicated programming track…

Jim Bernier

23

Jim:

It is not necessary to have a disconnected programming track … the connected programming track solution you have seen is the wrong way to wire in a connected programming track, and as you state, is guaranteed to blow decoders, or worse – blow the programming circuitry in your command station.[:0]

It is possible to have your cake and eat it too – to have a connected programming track and never worry about blowing a decoder or harming the programming circuitry in your command station – if you wire it right. That will be coming up next![:D]

24

Joe,
I use Lenz LS150 stationary decoders for my turnout control on my Digitrax Loconet and they are completely compatible. Each one controls 6 turnouts, programmable addressing up to 1024, programmable pulse duration. Tony’s price: $39.95 or $6.67/turnout.

REX [:)]

25

Rex:

I’m curious, what key sequence do people need to use on a Digitrax handheld to throw a turnout? Do you ever have to keep reminding your operators how to throw turnouts with their Digitrax throttle?

Seems to me that direct DCC control of turnouts makes operating a layout less “railroady” and more “Star Trek” like. Does a prototype loco crew push a set of buttons in the loco to throw a turnout? No, either they step down out of the loco and throw something at the turnout location … or the dispatcher throws the turnout in CTC territory.

The one exception to this would be hidden staging yards. Ideally, the operator doesn’t need to do anything except run his train offstage … and a computer would do the rest. Or in reverse, ideally, an operator would select a train in hidden staging, and then just run it on stage. No fiddling with hidden staging tracks at all.

This is one of those areas where some may not agree with me, but I am a big fan of avoiding “non-railroad” thoughts as you operate. In my opinion, the only valid “railroad-like” reason to have DCC controlled turnouts is to connect them to a CTC panel so the dispatcher can throw turnouts, as per the prototype – or to have a computer control staging as per the description above.

Otherwise, a $1 toggle switch on the fascia at the turnout location will do just as well and it’s actually more prototypical in feel. And obvious for operators as to how to throw the turnout – rather than having to now use fancy key sequences on their throttle to throw turnouts. It might be cool electronic gadgetry, but it’s not railroading. Real railroaders don’t use buttons in the loco cab to throw turnouts – at least none that I’m aware of.

I’ll admit I am biased toward walkaround layout designs, and once you adopt that layout design philosophy lots of control issues get simplified. Forget the big control panel … you don’t need it. Just mount simple direct controls on the fascia right at the turno

26

I am looking forward to this post as I am planning to have my programming track in my engine maintenance yard which will include turntable and roundhouse. I’d like to have to wire it only once. [;)]

27

Joe,
I too, believe you can go to far with automatic or remote control and end up just watching instead of “railroading”. I only use remote controlled switch machines on my two mainlines, but I still have mixed feelings about the use of the throttle vs. toggle switch for turnout control.

I have a fairly large home layout that I built with walk around control in mind. But, the convenience of throwing a turnout on the otherside of the room when needed outweighed having only a toggle. Besides, in the beginning, the novelty of being able to do it was overwhelming.
[:D]
I had thought about connecting a toggle to each of these turnouts giving me the option of how I controlled them. The problem is that if you throw a turnout with a toggle, then the throttle will not give you an accurate reading of the turnout position since the throttle didn’t initiate the change. It only knows what it did last.

Remote control of the turnouts hasn’t been a problem for my guests, as far as the how to do it. You simply pu***he SW button, number, and open/close. The problem for them has been knowing what number to push when they are not near the marker that shows the number. If there was toggle control, they would have to be near the turnout and could see the number.

As you have read, I am still walking the fence and not sure about which side I like best. If I could figure out how to utilize both methods for the same turnout and keep an accurate position reading on the throttle, then I would be a very happy train engineer.

Keep up the good work, Joe.

[^] REX [^]

28

Joe, I use Peco turnouts on my layout, and much prefer to manually switch them than use the controls on the throttle. I have a question to ask about the use of a throttle bus. As noted ealier in the thread, I use Digitrax, so have to have a loconet bus around the layout. I have placed panels at my yard and 2 other main switching districts, so that there is a panel close at hand when I need it. I am not using radio, but have been playing around with the IR solution. For my relatively small room layout it works fine. However, I digress. My local hobby shop has a huge layout 81’ x 60’ using radio Digitrax. I asked the owner about panel location over the weekend. He said that whatever radio system you have, you should have throttle panels placed around the layout for “emergency” use. For example if the radio system goes down or the throttle battery fails, there is a place to quickly plug in and regain control of a loco. Is this really a liklihood?

29

Having some place to ‘plug’ into for an emergency is a good idea. I have radio throttles(4), and I have 4 locations that I can plug them into as well. I have velcro pads by the plug in locations, and velcro on the back of each throttle. I always hang them on the velcro and plug them in at the end of the day. The system is powered up all of the time and the batteries are always charged. Low batteries are a problem at several layouts I have visited, and erratic oeration can result!

Jim Bernier

30

Hmmm … for a Digitrax system, the “plug in for an emergency” notion works, yes.

But for the other wireless systems, plugging in with your wireless isn’t an option. You have one or the other, but not both.

The only time we’ve had a problem losing a loco was with a bad wireless throttle, but that’s been rare. And as far as that goes, even tethered throttles can go bad.

As to batteries going dead, we don’t have that issue because the batteries (in the EasyDCC wireless throttles at least) last an entire “op session season” (September - June). The EasyDCC throttles have a low battery LED that starts to flash when the batteries get low … and I keep them filled with fresh (rechargable) batteries.

There were some early kinks to do with receiver placement, but we worked those out quickly … and a 2001 EPROM upgrade made reception totally reliable. Before the EPROM upgrade, we might lose one loco lashup at the far end of the layout every other session or so … but I had learned pointing the throttle at the floor solved it – so I just let my crew know this was the solution.

Since 2001 wireless reception has been totally reliable, with narry a problem (see note below). If someone does lose something, I have always been able to track it down to operator error (they fat fingered some buttons) and not a system failure.

NOTE: Recently, we did have someone lose a loco lashup during the session mysteriously. I checked it out and was able to restore control of the lashup so I gave them the throttle back and they merrily went on their way. Another hour or so into the session, it happened again. Realize this was totally unheard of, so I pulled the throttle suspecting it might have low batteries and perhaps some other problem. The rest of the session went it’s usual flawless self as to the DCC system performance.

I replaced the batteries in the throttle, checked all the settings, and tested it. It seemed to work fine, so I put a sticke

31

Joe,

I have Easy DCC as well and find that replacing the batteries in the wireless throttles is a hassle. Are there any tricks?..Those clips are pretty stiff and I always have the feeling I am going to break something… My theory is that they should be designed like most cordless phones/toothbrushes etc…with a rechargeable battery hardwired in and a recharging base station to store the throttles in when not in use…

I am following this thread with great interest because we have the same system and I am in the process of making all of the usual mistakes building the layout…Maybe you can help me avoid a few of them with regards to DCC installation.

Guy

32

I am using EZ Track, and their powered turnouts. They are wired into a second, spdt-isolated DC transformer that I use only for turnouts. So, inorder to run my transition era lines, I have to ‘throw’ them manually, but remotely. I like that arrangement because it is more intensive and involved.

33

The only wireless issue I have ever run ito is the low battery one. I have never seen ‘out of range’ issues(layout is 20’ by 25’ in a large ‘L’ shape). As I mentioned, I keep the DCC power active and my Digitrax throttles do not drain the batteries as long as they are plugged in. This also makes keeping track of them easy! Of course, I only have 4 wireless throttles to keep track of…

Jim Bernier

34

Guy:

To answer your EasyDCC wireless throttles question, here’s something Wayne Roderick has done to make changing batteries easier on his throttles. This is a post totally lifted from the EasyDCC Yahoo list (which I suggest EasyDCC user’s join, if you haven’t done so already).

BTW, each of the DCC systems has a Yahoo list for it … I recommend you join the list for the system you have or are thinking of purchasing. Registering is free, and you will learn tons from other users of your system this way.

[quote]
QUOTE:
At 12:08 PM 7/29/02 -0700, Mike Davison wrote:

Can rechargable AAA batteries be used in the wireless thottles? If so, any
recommendations for type/brand?

Mike, when we looked at the battery costs for our club operation, we came up
with this:

Nicads have only 1/2 the energy storage, hence frequent removal to recharge.
Initial expense, including a charger is high. If the cabs could be dropped into
a charger, much like most two-way radios, then we’d pursue this one.

The wireless throttles use four AAAs in a series/parallel arrangement apparently
to fit the case. The working voltage is 3-Volts. Very tidy.
Sure gets HOT when some goofball reverses one of 'em

AAs have about twice the energy that AAAs have but cost about the same.
Two AAs about equal the energy capacity of four AAAs. If you reverse one or
both AAs, no harm done.

The cabs tend to fall on their face if left upright, so you lay them down and
lose 'em until a train comes along and wacks it.

The solution:

Cemented a double AA case on the back, flush with the bottom and tack soldered
its wires to the appropriate AAA clips inside. No touche the pc :slight_smile:

Batteries cost half as much, easier to replace and the cab stands upright
tending to eliminate the statement “where did I lay the #@$#$ thing”

Same b

35

TOPIC THIS POST: Setting up the programming track
For certain decoder programming operations, programming the decoder with a special programming track is recommended. DCC command stations have a programming track output that is to be wired to a section of track to be used as a “programming track”, also known as “service mode” programming. Once you have set up your loco, the handier way to make programming tweaks is to do “programming on the main” or “ops mode” programming. More on this later.

I recommend you find a location in an engine servicing area of a yard that has a track near the front edge of the layout and designate that as your programming track. If you have the programming track connected to the layout, you’ll minimize the need to handle your locomotives and you can use this track in regular operations too.

However, you need wire the programming track appropriately to avoid problems. If a loco happens to bridge the gap between the programming track rails and the regular layout rails, you can fry decoders or blow the programming circuitry in your command station.

Here’s how to wire a programming track properly so it’s safe to have it connected to the rest of the layout.

THE SAFE WAY TO WIRE THE PROGRAMMING TRACK

(click to see a larger image)

The secret to wiring the programming track safely into the rest of the layout is to include a “switched” dead track section between the programming track and the rest of the layout. Cut gaps in both rails as shown in the diagram to create these three track sections. If your programming track is stub-ended rather than a through track as shown here, you can get away with a single dead section only at the end that connects to the rest of the layout.

This diagram shows how you can do this with a 4 pole double throw toggle switch. If you throw the toggle one direction (RUN I call i

36

Excellent post Joe, modifications are in order! My programming track is not protected like this, and I had never really considered the consequence of not protecting it. So off to find me a 4PDT switch!!

37

This may sound stupid. But why all the trouble for a programming track? Just have a siding with a dead section before the programming track and pu***he loco onto the track and push it off. Most newer decoders only need programming the address on a programming track the rest is done on the Po mode.
Just a thought
Harold

38

Harold:

First, the programming track is the only place you can read back CV settings, which at times is very valuable when you are tuning and troubleshooting things. Having a programming track where you don’t have to handle your locos in any way preserves their detail. I don’t know how many times I’ve busted some detail off a loco from handling it – and believe me, I’m careful. It just can’t be avoided when you handle a loco – even just to push it into a programming track as you suggest.

By wiring the programming track this way, it can also be a regular part of your layout trackage and you can use it normally when not programming something.

Finally, this is not that much trouble. You can find 4PDT toggles at most any electronics supply store as well as online. Here’s a 4PDT slide switch you can get online for 35 cents! ( http://www.alltronics.com/switches.htm - scroll down a ways) A toggle switch is nicer and will cost more, but the slide switch will certainly do the job.

I cut the gaps and wired this up on my layout in less than an hour. And it’s darn convenient! The worst that’s ever happened is someone asks why nothing will run on my turntable lead (which is where I have my programming track). Just flip the toggle back to RUN and things run just fine!

39

Joe - you mentioned using 12-guage STRANDED wire for your track power bus. At these voltages and currents, will there be any difference in using SOLID wire instead? 12-guage solid wire is standard home 120 volt circuit wire, so it’s sold in great big rolls at great big home-supply stores, which reduces the great big prices considerably.

40

MB:

No electrical difference between stranded and solid wire of the same guage. I like stranded wire because it’s a bit easier to work with than solid, and small guage solid wire tends to break if you stress a joint somewhere too much.

Larger guage solid wire is harder to maneuver around because of the excess stiffness, but breakage isn’t really a problem like it is with the small stuff. If you can get a good deal on 12 guage solid, I’d say go for it.

[:D]