Does anyone have any info they can share on fouling point markers and those railroads that used them? Photos would be great if you had any. I’m trying to find out some more info so I can work them into my layout. So far, I have found the following information.
“The Santa Fe used Orange paint on the tie at the point where the rails
diverging from the frog were 8 ft-3.5 inches apart. This info comes from
Santa Fe System Standards Vol. One, published by Kachina Press.”
I don’t have this book. Is there anyone that has it that could summarize this section if there is any more detail listed? I’m wondering did they paint the end of the tie, the whole tie, the top of the tie?
I also found this photo. This is a newer UP fouling point marker in use in the yard at Sparks, NV.
Any additional info about any fouling point markers you have would be awesome. If you have them on your layout, I’d like to hear about that too.
I have seen dabs of yellow or orange paint on the sides of the rail to mark what I assumed to be the fouling point, and I know some model railroaders who have used that same system to mark the fouling points on their sidings.
I also recall seeing pictures of metal signs with F.P. on them, which I have to assume stands for fouling point. What I do not know is if that marked the fouling point as we model railroaders would be concerned – sideswiping – or fouling the electrical circuits for signals, crossing gates, CTC, and the like.
If the track has insulated joints, the fouling point sign must be placed at the IJs, at least, that’s what is instructed in the standards of the Class 1s I know. On tracks without a track circuit it can be placed at the clearance point.
It’s a matter of point of view, I guess, but the Santa Fe and most other roads I know about called them “clearance markers.”
The clearance marker sheet in the AT&SF system standards book shows both a marker and a sign, the marker being the orange paint you referred to in your post. The the top of the outer end of the tie and the outside of the rail for an equivalent width were painted bright orange. There were three criteria for clearance marker location: unbonded (un-signalled) territory, bonded (signalled) territory, and with a derail in bonded or unbonded territory.
In unbonded territory the marker was on the first ties past a point where the separation between the diverging rails reached 8’-3-1/2", on both the main track and the siding, but only on the side between the two tracks.
In bonded territory the markers were placed on the first ties past the insulated rail joint farthest from the frog.
With a derail in bonded or unbonded territory, the markers were placed on the first ties past the derail (proceeding from the frog). All exposed surfaces of the derail were also painted bright orange.
The sign was to be used in addition to the markers with the approval of the grand division general manager. It was placed on the field side of the siding, 7’-6" from the nearest rail, at the clearance point conforming to the marker.
The sign was a 2" x 6" post standing 5 feet high measured from the top of the nearest rail, with the wide side perpendicular to the rail. On the side facing away from the frog a white panel was painted extending two feet down from the top (later replaced by
Thanks for the great information! This all helps. Some of my spurs are shorter and I wanted to put a marker of somekind for my own benefit so I know how close I can park a car before I create a problem for the adjacent track. I can definitely work with this info.
Bazonkers, the new FRA regulations state something to this effect:
If the clearance point is not marked, it is the responsibility of whoever is making the move to measure and find the clearance point. Generally this can be done by standing at the edge of the ties, extending one arm towards the adjancent track and making sure you can not touch the other car. Once that position is found, one more car length is required.
If the clearance point is marked, you can use that point as long as it safely protects the equipment on that track and adjacent tracks.
There are certain rules and instances where you can leave tracks fouling an adjance track, such as if the car is fouling the switch and the switch is left lined for that tracks movement.
The clearance markers at my place of employment are paint on the ties and on the web of the rail. Color is “Safety Orange”.
For our purposes in modeling, This is usually the point where an uncoupling magnet will be placed. Various methods of marking the magnet/ foul point have been mentioned.
It may be nec to set the magnet further down the siding than actually needed to clear the foul point for proper coupling.
It’s a matter of point of view, I guess, but the Santa Fe and most other roads I know about called them “clearance markers.”
The clearance marker sheet in the AT&SF system standards book shows both a marker and a sign, the marker being the orange paint you referred to in your post. The the top of the outer end of the tie and the outside of the rail for an equivalent width were painted bright orange. There were three criteria for clearance marker location: unbonded (un-signalled) territory, bonded (signalled) territory, and with a derail in bonded or unbonded territory.
In unbonded territory the marker was on the first ties past a point where the separation between the diverging rails reached 8’-3-1/2", on both the main track and the siding, but only on the side between the two tracks.
In bonded territory the markers were placed on the first ties past the insulated rail joint farthest from the frog.
With a derail in bonded or unbonded territory, the markers were placed on the first ties past the derail (proceeding from the frog). All exposed surfaces of the derail were also painted bright orange.
The sign was to be used in addition to the markers with the approval of the grand division general manager. It was placed on the field side of the siding, 7’-6" from the nearest rail, at the clearance point conforming to the marker.
The sign was a 2" x 6" post standing 5 feet high measured from the top of the nearest rail, with the wide side perpendicular to the rail. On the side facing away from the frog a white panel was painted extending two feet down from the top (later replac
Our fouling points will be orange spray paint on the tie’s where the foul point is.One of our new rules is where we do the “check” ( standing on the end of the tie and extending your arm to see if you can touch the car) even if the car is not in reach we are to shove it 50 foot further down the track.Obviously cant do that if its tight at both ends so my guess will be take the cars close to foul and flip them to another track.
We do have signs in sidings that are yellow reflective with black letters with FP on them.I think we were debating the plastic cones,but those seem to get knocked off easily and are then gone.We had them in Galesburg for a bit then just went to spray painting the entire tie and sides of the rail.
It’s a matter of point of view, I guess, but the Santa Fe and most other roads I know about called them “clearance markers.”
The clearance marker sheet in the AT&SF system standards book shows both a marker and a sign, the marker being the orange paint you referred to in your post. The the top of the outer end of the tie and the outside of the rail for an equivalent width were painted bright orange. There were three criteria for clearance marker location: unbonded (un-signalled) territory, bonded (signalled) territory, and with a derail in bonded or unbonded territory.
In unbonded territory the marker was on the first ties past a point where the separation between the diverging rails reached 8’-3-1/2", on both the main track and the siding, but only on the side between the two tracks.
In bonded territory the markers were placed on the first ties past the insulated rail joint farthest from the frog.
With a derail in bonded or unbonded territory, the markers were placed on the first ties past the derail (proceeding from the frog). All exposed surfaces of the derail were also painted bright orange.
The sign was to be used in addition to the markers with the approval of the grand division general manager. It was placed on the field side of the siding, 7’-6" from the nearest rail, at the clearance point conforming to the marker.
The sign was a 2" x 6" post standing 5 feet high measured from the top of the nearest rail, with the wide side perpendicular to the rail. On the side facing away from the frog a white panel was painted extending two f
When setting out cars I’ve always took the advice of a old head " If you feel your so close that you need to do that tie and arm crap, then just shove back another car or so."
Like someone said in another reply if it’s so tight that you can’t clear , set it over to another track after talking to the yardmaster or on the road take it back with you. Remember if someone hit’s it, YOU set it there.
System wide CSX uses the “Yellow Tie” program. The entire tie and web of the rail are painted bright yellow to mark clearance points. Sometimes reflectors or surveying flags are added as well.
I recall one time on the Chessie/C&O we did a illegal “squeeze by” run around because we decided to go for a early quit and didn’t want to go another 14 miles to a longer run around.
How close?
About 12" between the engine and the ends of the train as it pass the switch…
I never heard of the arm and tie method.We figured 1 long car or 2 short cars from the end of the switch was good enough for clearance.
Until tie markings became commonplace, we used this method all the time. Though we would stand with one foot against the adjacent rail and hold the arm straight out. They even taught it at the training school.
