The reflective tape will work only until it is covered by grafitti[:(!]!
Too true… [V] Maybe they’ll be “kind” enough to spare it like some apparently do the reporting marks. Mind you I’m mostly hopeful on that count…
I can just see the headline now: “Railroad Guilty of Negligence in Grade Crossing Death”. (Like we haven’t seen that one before!) And why? Because there wasn’t enough reflective tape on a few cars, or it was covered with graffiti. I know that these rules and regulations are made with the best of intentions, but I think all too often they just create income opportunities for slimeball lawyers. J.D. Nomad
JD-
Just as you suspect, the issue of visibility has already been litigated many times. I know of at least one case where a car drove under a haz mat (propane) tanker and took out the brake rigging. The tank car and others in the train were black, but had already been equipped with reflective tape. Didn’t stop the crash. Nor did it stop the plaintiff from claiming the cars were “invisible”…
LC
Okay you guys win …it’s a stupid idea.
What the &^%$ was I thinking.
Of course, nobody has bothered to mention that it’s a LAW to at LEAST slow down for a railroad crossing. That’s why they put the big round yellow signs out- to warn motorists of a crossing ahead, so they can slow down and be prepared to stop if there is a train nearby. Some places have stop signs at crossings, and people STILL don’t stop! One teenager died here a few years back when he obviously ignored a stop sign and hit a parked CN train! What a brewhaha followed after the mother complained that the crossing should have had gates and flashers and air bags and armed guards… well, that’s what she pretty much wanted! [banghead] The general public has no knowledge of the cost of grade crossing protection, but refuses to acknowledge the fact that they still have to be alert when approaching the tracks! ESPECIALLY the people who live near those tracks! Insanity runs rampant, that’s why those lawyers make out like they do!
Message here folks, is when you approach the tracks, just slow down and look, even with gates and lights! Just doing THAT would cut down the number of crashes dramatically!
See today’s Minneapolis Star Tribune article on grade crossings.
Interesting concept… EPA demands “quiet” trains, so now the FRA needs “more visible” trains…
I always slow down for RR crossings, but that’s 'cuz I want to see a train! Maybe a law should be made requiring everybody to be a railfan… [swg][banghead]
LOL!
-Mark
http://www.geocities.com/fuzzybroken
True, this was and is one of the big points of contention. I understand that the railroads managed to keep any cleaning requirements out of the final regulation. That won’t stop people from bringing lawsuits on the issue, of course.
The other thing that no one has brought up in this conversation is that when tracing interests it is useful to “follow the money”. In any safety regulation requiring alteration to freight cars, locomotives or other rail equipment one has to consider how such alterations will be paid for and maintained. Keep in mind that the railroads are one national (OK, North American) system.
How do railroads maintain their equipment. They have car and locomotive shops, on their property. Off property, other railroads repair the cars for the owner (RR or private) and bill the owner pursuant to the AAR Car Service Rules. Owners must accept and pay the railroad’s AAR car repair bills. Locomotive repairs are handled by agreements between the railroads involved. Under the AAR Car Service Rules repairs to safety appliances are not covered by the provisions permitting railroads to bill the owner. Thus, railroads must bear the costs of repairs to safety appliances (such as ladders, grabs, end platforms, etc).
So, why is this important in the great reflective tape debate?
If I am a railroad that owns few cars yet I receive many in interchange owned by others, and reflective tape is considered a safety appliance I will be on the hook for replacing a lot of reflective tape at my expense over time. I will need additional personnel, in
Mookie had a comment that made me think.(Happens rarley, Thanks Mookie!) With the cleaning of the coal car reflectors. This would probably work for all cars. If all the reflectors are put at the same height off the rail they could build some sort of apparattus that could clean the reflectors as the train passes by. Some sort of brush on a flexible post that maybe hangs in a bit so there is pressure to keep the brush on the car, also allowing for the small variations in width(if any) of the cars. Useing a brush ro somthing that could remove anything but graffitti. Just a suggestion.
Wouldn’t the owner of the equipment be on the hook for the up-grades or repairs?
I know if a sill step or safety appliance is broken, then another railway will fix the item (for a price that is fixed by the AAR) then bill the owner of the equipment, wouldn’t it be the same for reflectors?
–It’s not like host railways don’t have a lot of time to get the tape on there either, all new locmotives and equipment seemed to be equiped with the tape now anyway.
Not addressed yet - I have yet to see reflective tape of any guaranteed duration. Scotchlite (Background material on most roadway signs) lasts only a few years and less in extreme temperature or flying dirt/ grit conditions.
LC- Good point about the “invisible” tank car. I know of a lawsuit in California where some dang fool drove around the gates and got clobbered, fortunately by a slow moving train, and STILL won his case. I don’t remember all the particulars now ( it was a number of years ago ) but at the time I actually thought about finding a new career. The engineer was named in the suit as a liable party! The way these stinkin’ lawyers are now, I’m surprised the dispatcher wasn’t named too. Point is, any one of us can be sued by anyone. The hoghead in that case wasn’t held liable, but a different jury might well have done otherwise. Forgive me for being a cynic, but close calls are almost a daily occurrence these days, so I dread any new government so-called safety rule. As I said before, I know these things are well intentioned, but I wonder how many of these bright-eyed and bushy-tailed young government weenies have even been in a rail yard, let alone in the cab of a locomotive. Such is the nature of bureaucracy, I suppose, but gee, guys, don’t you drive a car? If you don’t, then I guess I have to cut you some slack, but if you do, then you darn well ought to be aware of how stupid people can be behind the wheel! And that’s not even taking pedestrians and bicyclists into account. I had an example of bicycle idiocy no more than a week ago at a suburban grade crossing. Damn fool went around a pedestrian gate so close in front of us that I was just SURE we got him. Thankfully, he made it, but my heart rate probably didn’t get back to normal for two days. Worst part of it was, he had stopped at the gate like he was going to wait. Then, at the last possible second, he changed his mind and went for it. We were at track speed ( 38 MPH at that point ) with only 33 cars. Now, how many seconds of time did he risk his life for? Anyway, people, you see where I’m coming from. The bureaucrats can make all the rules they want, but they’ll never succede in outlawing stupidity, and no safety device ( other than maybe a straightjack
Saftey devices an never outlaw the Gene Pool anamolies…
I am a happily employed Electronic Technician for the USPS, thanks to an incident on the “Utterly Pathetic RR”…
Every piece of rolling stock ought to have tape on it. Never know when that tape might help. A car is almost quiet if it rolls by, then again, the other guy ought to be paying atention…
m1ashooter- I don’t disagree that reflective tape is a good idea. My point is simply that when the government mandates it, it becomes a tool for the lawyers. Sort of makes the case for railroads to do these things voluntarily, doesn’t it? Also, you couldn’t be more right about the silence of a rolling car. Stand in any yard where they’re kicking cars and watch. Then, in a safe spot, please, close your eyes and just TRY to tell when a car is getting close to you. Good luck. If you were standing between the rails, the car might very well hit you before you heard it. I think you know this as well as I do, but it’s well worth repeating for all those folks out there who haven’t had any real experience in railroading. Anyway, sorry to hear that you had a career-changing incident. In my experience, it’s usually not the guy that screwed up that gets hurt, it’s someone else. I suspect that you were the “someone else”. My best to you. J.D. Nomad
Let’s face it. You could put bright flashing lights every two feet down every car, and some moron would still hit the train, and win his lawsuit.
One thing about the fire prevention business. We spend many hours teaching people how not to have fires - but we have no way of knowing exactly how successful we are.
We’ll never know how many accidents this will prevent.
Larry:
Your comments regarding the product are pretty accurate. I sell the product to both the truckers and the rails.
It is a great product and a needed regulation. The trucking industry began putting the product on in the early 90’s and by about 1993 it was mandated. Now all trailers have it on from the factory. I believe the straight trucks will soon be covered also.
The retrofitting of the cars will be a major project, but they are given 10 years. One of my railcar manufactureres has been voluntarily placing it on their new builds for a couple of years.
There are two major suppliers…3M and Reflexite. Both are very good. The product (white) has a candlepower of about 1000. With dirt and road grime that will be reduced somewhat. It still will provide excellent visual protection.
When it became regulated the trucking companies pretty much accepted it, knowing if it kept them out of one accident, it would be well worth it.
The accident which pretty much pushed this into law was a case where a driver for a well know orange fleet attempted to make a directional U turn and his trailer was out in the lanes. A pregnant woman came over a hill and she was killed, with the fetus surviving.
Safety is a necessary part of any work environment. I am amazed by how “dark” these cars are at rural crossings. Even in urban environments it is easy not to see these cars.
Data shows that by the time a person reaches 50 years old their light gathering ability for their eyes is about 50% of when they were 20.
BTW…I really have no financial interests in this product. The margins are low and I sell it as a service to my customers. Most companies purchase it direct from the manufacturers.
ed
Both BNSF and UP use reflective lettering on their engines already.
While this will prevent some crossing s, There still are those people who drive into the side of a train on a clear day with no obstructions.
Dave H.
It is amazing how far the tape will reflect light. While on a Delta Air Lines flight taking off from Salt Lake City, I noticed a UP local freight from an altitude of about 2000 feet. Sunlight reflected off of the lettering on the locomotive to the plane was still quite bright and almost blinding.
Well, after doing some research on the ruling and reading more here, I’ve been convinced …convinced that maybe ole’ Robert T Pines was on to something …it is apparently all about money (BTW 18 of 120 comments on file were from him). Reflective tape works. It’s something I use in my line of work EVERY day. It does have a life span, but so does everything else except spam, twinkies and trainfinder22’s list of names.
So what is the level of acceptable losses to transport a container of rubber dog poop from the docks of LA to Chicago? One life, two maybe? You’ll never see a headline about reflective tape saving a life. And yes, like anything else it will be used as a litigation point. And no it won’t stop all or even many accidents. But if it prevents one tired dude driving out in the stcks at night from running into the side of a train, it’s a worthwhile investment. I’ve never had to use the parachute in my plane to date, but I know that it’s saved lives. Big deal it’s tape. It’s cheap and it works. Talk about PR…RRS fighting the use of reflective tape…boy talk about playing right into the NYT and trucker’s hands…since they’ve had to do it for years.
So for those of us who don’t apparently work or live in the real world…it’s a good thing we have those government pencil necks out there to protect us from ourselves…I guess it’s kind of moot now…nothing to debate…It’s a rule.
So I ask again, what is the level of acceptable loss?