Fred Frailey mentions in his August entry that the public’s sense of detachment from the big class one railroads is bordering on turning to hostility.
Do you think this is true? and if so do you think that the railroads should be doing something to try and change this?
I’M interested in hearing as many opinions on this as possible, especially from some of the more hard boiled members (you know who you are)
The proportion of the population who remembers train travel as the way to get people and things places is dropping daily. Boomers like myself, a significant portion of today’s populace, knew the phenomenon only peripherally as highways and airplanes became the predominate transportation modes during our lifetimes.
Because of the disconnect that exists between people and trains as a method of transportation, I would tend to agree that things will only get worse. The railroads are in the unenviable position of trying to sell the public something that most will never use directly, but that they all rely on daily.
The only image the majority of the public has of railroads today is through the windshield, as they are delayed by a train (notice I didn’t say “waiting for…”). The security we’ve been discussing elsewhere on the forum helps ensure that most of them never see any other aspect of railroad operation - those parts that help connect the train at the crossing to the goods being hauled or produced - it’s all hidden from them in huge yards situated for minimal local impact, or inside factories that don’t want publicity.
The railroads aren’t going away, but I think that they face an uphill battle as more and more people don’t understand their raison d’être.
I’ll start the replies to this very worthy question/thread.
I live in a town in northeast Ohio that is served by three railroads (CSX, W&LE, Akron-Barberton Cluster). They cut through the center of town and blow their horns for the crossings. They are present!
But, when I taught history at the local high school not once, ever, could any students name all 3. Few could name one. Railroads are not on their radar or that of their parents, or anyone else in town. Why?
Truthfully, I’m not sure (that’s one of the points of this thread). But here’s a try:
Names. Corporate names like CSX just mean nothing to people. Where’s the romance or history in that, or BNSF? Thank goodness for Union Pacific! I would think that if a railroad wanted to raise public awareness of its existence that real names would help very much.
Employment. Though this is an old railroad town, there are no railroad jobs here. So they are not local employers.
No corporate sponsorships of anything local, however in my town the Akron-Barberton Cluster folks do a fine job of pulling a 3-car excursion train over their tracks for a local festival. This is a huge draw to the festival and is virtually the only contact with this railroad that the townspeople have, but it’s one day a year.
Allow steam and excursion trains (I know, I know
Doubt if my opinion is “hard boiled”, and really that important, but…I’ve had similar thoughts as Fred Frailey does in his article.
I think the public’s “sense of detachment” is really real…very much so.
I don’t know what the railroads should do…if anything, but It’s been my observation the public barely understands railroads are still here “doing the job” at hand, and if they happen to get in the public’s way, be damned.
“They have no right to block that crossing”, while switching some cars, etc…No matter if the railroad has been there long before any hint of residences have been in such area. People just don’t understand what railroads are doing…“still blocking my way here in our neighborhood” and so on…
The detachment as explained above is understandable but hostility seams to be a ‘reach’. If you are detached that means you have little interface and few reasons to be hostile. Sure being stopped at a crossing while a slow train passes may ‘at times’ be an irritant but usually it is insignificant. There are so many other irritants encountered while driving that arouse hostility. I suspect a train may indeed be an opportunity to relax and enjoy a sight infrequently encountered.
I drive I-40 frequently and as I see the BNSF piggybacks and doublestacks more than a mile long I am greatful all of that is not imparing my trip. At rest stops others share that same view with me. Perhaps Mr. Frailey would choose to share specifics about the ‘hostility’.
To your first question: Yes.
To your second question: Of course. It would be foolhardy to ignore it. But it is not easy or simple, and to actually effect a change may not even be possible.
RWM
I haven’t seen Fred’s article myself yet but obviously there is discord between the public and the freight railroad industry sadly enough and needlessly so. I think some railroads such as CSXT and Norfollk Southern have done a good job of getting ads on CNN and Fox but to bridge the gap, the industry somehow has to figure out how to take it to another level. When I was in high school back in the 70’s, I used to go to our library in my hometown and I would always pour over the WWII-era National Geographic magazines as they had tons of railroad advertisements; particularly from my favorite railroad, the Milwaukee Road. Granted, I realize things have changed much since then; particularly now with Amtrak handling intercity passenger service. But you take a closer look at some of those ads and you can easily detect the pride the railroads had back then of serving their territory. Some of the MILW ads from that time are simply very, very good. I really believe that the industry has to use all mediums and freaking ADVERTISE and get themselves known again. It has to be done in a way that will beneifit and promote their business purposes but at the same time be cool and “hip” enough to attract the younger set. It can be done. Is there anyone out there smart enough to do it?
No, for the public in general - but yes, anyway.
My sense is that the people who are hostile towards railroads are those small numbers [‘minorities’ in a numerical - not a racial - sense’] who are -
Living near a grade crossing, yard, or active line, and have to put up with the horn, crashing couplers, and other train noise and dust, especially at night;
Delayed frequently by trains at grade crossings; or,
Annoyed by long lines of stored freight cars nearby, weed-spraying, and anything else that gets ‘their shorts in a knot’ over some special concern or issue.
Otherwise, the public is indifferent and apathetic about railroads - ‘They don’t know and they don’t care’. As someone else said a long time ago - ‘‘What -are they still around ?’’
The recent ads by CSX [tup] [bow] have elicited as much comment about railroads as I’ve ever received from those who know I’m interested. Lest we forget, NS also had several recent series’ - ‘The Lonely Gas Can’ was last summer, I believe - and a couple of years ago even UP had several ads on radio and TV. No one else, though, to the best of my knowledge.
But CSX is the current champ - its ads are not just talking about the freight business, but emphasizing how it reduces truck traffic on the roads - ‘‘Each train carries the equivalent of 280 trucks’’, helps the environment, and so the rest of us = the public. Note - those CSX ads are not just on TV - they also sponsor some programs on National Public Radio, such as ‘‘Wait, Wait, Don’t Tell Me’’, the weekly news-quiz game show. As such, the ads are likely reach a more informed and erudite segment of the public [IMHO].
[quote user=“NKP guy”]
. Employment. Though this is an old railroad town, there are no railroad jobs here. So they are not local employers.
No corporate sponsorships of anything local, however in my town the Akron-Barberton Cluster folks do a fine job of pulling a 3-car excursion train over their tracks for a local festival. This is a huge draw to the festival and is virtually the only contact with this railroad that the townspeople have, but it’s one day a year.
Allow steam and excursion trains (I know, I know…lawyers and insurance). When steam trains have traversed our town hundreds of people line the tracks and talk about trains.
The railroads drag their feet for years when it comes to replacing bridges the public uses or even cooperating with local governments on such projects. The railroad bureaucracy is even more labrythine than local government. Why not take an expediting approach that the public would admire?
The railroads like the status quo. I really believe they want to be stealth industries and not noticed at all. I will say, they ask nothing of our governments on any level. They are close-lipped and avoid newspaper or tv publicity. When we had a big derailment on CSX a few months ago that knocked out a bridge in town we heard virtually nothing f
As are the riders themselves. (bad joke)
Quite true, unless you happen to live in a city that has commuter rail (like Chicago); in those locations property values INCRAESE the closer they are to Metra. Those folks are very much aware of the trains.
See above.
Now in a city like Milwaukee that has zero passenger rail (unless you count the Amtrak Hiawatha to Chicago) and barely any freight traffic, you are quite correct.
People notice trains when they are waiting at a crossing. It is getting now that people dont notice a fire rescue vehicle until it is on top of them. People are in their own world,my world includes trains theirs mostly does not.
I think it is just part of the growing bias against anything industrial. Many people have a disconnect between their modern lifestyle and what it takes to maintain that lifestyle. The goods they use and consume come from a store, or maybe are ordered on line. They don’t think much about how a product is made or grown, how or where it’s manufactured/processed or the transportation involved from raw materials to finished product. They themselves don’t work or are close to knowing anyone working in the chain. All they know is that everytime they go to the store there is products to buy, that when they turn on the switch the lights come on.
Thinking that way makes it easy to be against anything that is inconvenient to them. Something that is noisy, smelly, is visually displeasing or takes away 5 minutes of their “valuable” time is something that shouldn’t be in their neighborhood. Better yet, the further away the better because there was something on the internet about how dangerous things really are.
I think as long as the general population becomes more disconnected with all but the end product of what it takes to live, hostility and/or indifference will only grow. Not only for railroads, but all industry in general.
Jeff
Speaking as someone in Chicago, there is a sense of detachment from the big class one railroads. Right now, it’s indifference, but one spark could turn it into hostility. This happened when CN took over the EJ&E. The “people, not freight” signs were all over Barrington and surrounding towns.
The railroads like to think that they’re a “stealth” industry, but they are dependent on the goodwill of the communities they pass through. If the community is indifferent, the only people who care are NIMBYs and wonks.
The railroads need to address public indifference. Some of the things they can do:
A. Be visible. Get a steam engine and run it on excursions. Sponsor things. Get onto TV.
B. Support the local railroad enthusiasts in any way they can.
C. Push Operation Lifesaver; make it more visible. Show the gruesome grade crossing accident videos to selected audiences.
D. Get their name where the people are.
E. Cooperate with local authorities. Let them know that the railroad exists.
F. Move your headquarters to a place where you’re going to need favors from people. The authorities are going to be more responsive to a local CEO than to someone who “parachutes” in when they need something.
Getting back to CN - EJ & E, CN would have had much less opposition if they brought in a steam locomotive lettered “Canadian National” and ran excursions from Barrington to Ravinia Park (and back). And CN would have
Well actually, it’s human nature to have contempt for that which we do not understand, whenever confronted by it.
And the general population might be confronted by a railroad (or more likely by the press’s coverage of a RR related issue) in the following ways:
An Abo canyon like issue
A DME/Mayo Clinic like issue
A Global 3 like (where to build?) issue
car/pedestrian gets hit by train
A community vs loud horns issue
When people are forced to contemplate an entity that presents a down side, they tend to build contempt for the target, it’s in our “wiring”
And, we’ve witnessed some threads right here, that ignited their fair share of contempt, that are directly keyed into this thought process, remember the “team track” thread that was started by an intentional trouble maker? it still adresses the reality that the railroads have made themself into something that presents very little (direct) utility to the general public. If Joe citizen were to approach a railroad for a competitive quote to ship something across country (trying to beat a truck quote) My bet is there will soon be contempt from Joe after the railroad treats him with the indifference we both know he will receive.
So, there is ample opportunity for hostility to rise, and lets face it, taxpayer relations is something the RR’s MUST
Plus, I believe there is an awareness out there (perhaps among a slim minority) that the reason why the taxpayers are harnessed with amtraks losses, is because the freight railroads were given a free pass. [}:)]
I think that I have to agree with a lot of other people on here that have said before, the general public is more indifferent than actually hostile towards the railroads. Also like you’ve said, most people are afraid of what they don’t understand, and since most people do not understand the railroad, they fear it, or become angry at it. I, for one, respect and understand that the railroads are there for a purpose, to move goods and freight from point A to point B and do it as cost-effectively as possible. Most people just see the railroads as something that gets in their way, that prevents them from getting from point A to point B, but they put up with it simply because “most” people know that its a whole lot harder to get the railroad to move as compared to their personal vehicle.
Abo Canyon? Rochester Mn? Covington KY? McKean county pennsylvania? etc etc?
I would not use the term ‘contempt’ to describe what the average person feels when confronted with, inconvenienced, or presented with, either literally or figuratively, anything about railroads. Bemusement in some cases, indifference, hostility probably, genuine interest, delight in a few cases…
It seems to me that contempt is a feeling one has for something judged inferior in some way, something defective or deficient when the remedy is apparently within the power of the operator to improve or rectify generally. I can’t see many reasonably smart business people, transportation workers, commuters, and such judging trains to be somehow defective, deficient, immoral, corrupt, or their operators inept, uncaring…all those terms that would leave the average person in contempt of someone or something as they would a more unseemly business such as petthy theft, car-jacking, prostitution, child abuse, fraud, bullying, and so on. I don’t believe that people hold in contempt what they don’t understand. They generally fear it as a first reaction, and then they villify it in order to bolster and justify their desire to do it damage as a way to reduce its unwanted effects on them. If there is contempt, it is when their target is finally vanquished. Hence the Roman aphorism, “Woe to the vanquished.”
My thoughts of a small part of the discussion.
-Crandell
Abo Canyon, just a person or two with enough money to hire lawyers and raise enviormental issues.
Rochester, Minn., a special interest situation (a very special one in this case) but no hostility which inspires a large following.
Don’t know about the other two which may make my point. Where is the large interest and hostility beyond a twenty mile radius? And I have not heard of etc etc but surely they must have significance.
I think it’s disinformation, as opposed to misinformation. When I’m introduced to someone, or the fact that I “work for a railroad” comes up, the first reaction locally is “Oh, Metra?” Out of the region, they want to know something about Amtrak. [sigh]
Reaction to freight railroads is best seen at grade crossings, where people will make U-turns and find another way to go when they see a freight train coming. Never mind that they’ve just lost more time than they would have if they’d stayed where they were.
I’m not sure that 30-second factoid spots get the full message across. I do think that some local publicity would be helpful: things like repairing a grade crossing signal so that it works properly (I think CN lowered its operating ratio by eliminating the inner circuits at its crossings!), publicizing when a tie (or rail) gang comes along to improve the track through town. Or, yes, a little more paint where it can be seen.
“CSX…hauling 280 truckloads of whatever business UP and BNSF want to give us.” (sorry, [}:)])