I am searching for dimensions of the De Glenn compound 4-4-2 Atlantics used by the Nord railway in France. I want to build a model and have a drawing with no scale, so I just need one dimension e.g. wheelbase or total length to scale the drawing from. If anyone could help I’d be very grateful.
Many thanks
Matthew Cadbury
One was tried by the PRR and soundly rejected. aAparently there was a way to start the engine that each set of wheels would rotate in opposite directions. You might try the PRR historical society as the drawing collection is quite extensive. I believe it was written up in the Keystone (official publication) several years ago and should still be avilable.
Matthew, the SNCF Museum at Mulhouse has an extensive archive, they are probably your best bet for obtaining information. http://www.culturespaces.com/en/train/406-home/ All the best, Mark.
ndbprr wrote: <“Aparently there was a way to start the engine that each set of wheels would rotate in opposite directions.”> Utter nonsense. Both pairs of driving wheels were coupled by rods, just like any other 4-4-2. Or are you suggesting the PRR ran the engine with the coupling rods removed - because that’s the only way that each set of wheels could rotate in opposite directions… Cheers, Mark.
Matthew,
Firstly you have misspelled the name, which should be Alfred de Glehn. He was an Englishman, so you can’t claim it is a foreign name. This might help on Internet searches.
The English Great Western Railway purchased a standard Nord de Glehn 4-4-2, and two slightly larger 4-4-2s to designs of the Paris Orleans Railway. As built, all three were completely standard French locomotives with lower chimneys and cabs built to lower clearances.
The first (Nord) locomotive was GWR 102 “La France”. The wheelbase was 27 ft 4-5/8 inches, the bogie was 6 ft 10-5/16 inches wheel base, spaced 6ft 0-15/16 inches from the driving wheels (axle to axle)while the driving wheels were spaced 7 ft 0-5/8 inches apart and the trailing axle 7 ft 10-1/2 inches behind the trailing coupled axle. If these don’t add up, don’t blame me, I’ve just copied the diagram which was clearly converted from metric dimensions.
The Pennsylvania did indeed also import a similar locomotive about the same time (about 1905) but I doubt that it was ever used in normal service.
The comment about locomotives with uncoupled wheels rotating in opposite direction referred to earlier locomotives designed by Francis Webb of the London and North Western Railway. The PRR imported one of those (a 2-4-0 or 2-2-2-0 to be pedantic, since the wheels were not coupled!) as well as the French 4-4-2, although at an earlier date.
Hope this helps.
M636C
M636C wrote: <“The comment about locomotives with uncoupled wheels rotating in opposite direction referred to earlier locomotives designed by Francis Webb of the London and North Western Railway.”> I’ve seen this referred to a number times - but did it ever actually happen, or is it the trainspotter’s equivalent of an urban myth? I’m well aware that the middle LP cylinder on Webb compounds was driven by a slip eccentric - but I’m also aware that these engines were normally started in simple expansion by using the intercepting valve - so the LP cylinder shouldn’t have received any exhaust steam until the loco was rolling, and the eccentrics were in fore gear… Are there any reliable contemporary accounts from someone like Ahrons that describe this? Cheers, Mark.
Didn’t one of the de Glehn compounds shipped to the USA end up being dumped overboard by accident at the docks?
Dave Nelson
Thanks to everyone for all the posts. I will scale the drawings with the dimensions and I can also find some information here in the UK about the GWR’s La France loco, I didn’t know that the PRR tried a De Glehn compound too.
The Webb compound on the PRR was built by Beyer Peacock in 1889, was called “Pennsylvania”, numbered 1320, and scrapped in 1898.
There were about 100 of these divided drive Webb compounds in the UK on the London North Western Railway. The outside, high pressure, cylinders drove the rear driving wheels and had joy valve gear (as used on many marine engines) and the inside, low pressure, cylinder drove the front driving wheels. Unfortunately joy valve gear is quite wide and this made it impossible to also fit coupling rods within UK clearances, so Webb didn’t fit any and the driving wheels operated independantly. The engines were fast and powerful and hauled some of the UK’s principle express trains for several years, but were tricky to start. As well as the loco sold to the PRR, one was sold to France, one to Austria and a few to South America.
In most cases the inside cylinder had slip eccentric valve gear, so if the locomotive reversed on to a train and then tried to move forward, the low pressure cylinder would initially remain in reverse gear and hence the difficulties in starting. As Mark mentions there was a valve for use in starting, but it is technically possible that the wheels could have slipped in opposite directions if the driver failed to use the valve. Ahrons was very critical of the design, but as far as I know there’s no documented example of the wheels slipping like this.
Matthew