Hello I have to steamers that run on oil is this the same as diesel fuel ? Or do I need two storage tanks one for each. The diesel fuel is for the first run of diesel locos . I am putting in a diesel storage/fueling station and just thought about the steamers . Thanks Frank
Don’t quote me on this, but i’m pretty sure that the oil-steamers did not use diesel. I think it was Bunker-c oil or something and it needed heated up to be poured or something?!
Again, I may be wrong.
They burn a heavier oil than diesel, but not as heavy as bunker C. I believe that bunker C was burned only by the UP gas turbines. It is a very thick heavy fuel, basically a “waste” product.
Dave H.
Bunker C (#6 fuel oil,) which is about one step short of road tar, was the standard boiler fuel for ships of the period. I rather suspect it was a normal locomotive fuel as well - oil tenders had steam heaters in the oil tanks (Westcott, Model Railroader Cyclopedia, Volume 1, STEAM LOCOMOTIVES, Fig 53.) IIRC, the storage tanks at engine terminals were also heated.
Diesel fuel (#2 fuel oil) is much lighter, and the two are not interchangeable in fueling a diesel locomotive. A steamer CAN burn #2 if the burners are adjusted for it - most tourist roads use it today, since #6 fuel oil is unobtainable in most places. Problem is, #2 is much more expensive than #6.
Interestingly, the gigantic diesels used in modern ships start up on #2, then shift to heavier (cheaper) oil once the cylinder temperature rises enough to atomize it efficiently.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with coal burning steam)
The Espee used bunker oil for fuel for most of the steam locomotives on the system. Bunker oil is about a step or two above asphalt. The bunker oil had to be heated in order to flow and the tenders had steam coils in the fuel tank. Espee even used bunker oil to fuel diesel locomotives. Many F units and GP9’s were converted to burn bunker oil. The locomotive was started on diesel fuel then switched to bunker oil . If the locomotive was going to be shut down then the fuel was switched back to diesel fuel for a while to get the bunker oil out of the injectors and fuel system. The “Mud Burners” had two fuel tanks. one for diesel fuel and one for bunker oil.
The dual fuel idea was used for several years but was more of a problem than it was worth so Espee went back to using diesel fuel . Steam made the last runs in 1956 on the Espee.
I ran a #6 oil system at Armco Steel in Middletown Ohio for five years. I learned to despise #6 oil. I had two 250,000 gallon tanks and one 1,000,000 gallon tanks that fed 36 soaking pits and four slab furnaces. I had to start heating that oil in July so it would be hot enough to flow when fuel restrictions started around November. The oil was circulated through the pump house and each loop to the soaking pits and slab furnaces and back into the tanks. In order to be burned it needed to be at least 167 degrees F. Then at each burner was a differential pressure regulator that used steam to atomize the oil that had to be 15# higher than the oil pressure to break up the stream so it would burn. one night I came home at 10 below zero at about 3Am after switching everything from gas. My wife took one look and made me strip in the garage. I was so cold it didn’t make a bit of difference. On a steam engine there is a steam coil in the tank to keep it hot. Don’t know if they used steam to atomize it or not but my advice is if anyone even talks about #6 to run as fast as you can.
Hi!
The previous posters were on target.
When refining crude, basic liquid products are gasolines(s), jet fuel, diesel fuel (for diesel locos), fuel oil (for heating), and #6 fuel (for today’s large ship engines). Non liquid products would be sulfer, asphalt, propane, and some butanes.
In years gone by, the #6 or bunker fuel (as ships stored them in bunkers) was used for stationary boilers and oil fired steam locos. Often the oil was so thick that it had to be heated to allow it to flow thru the injectors. On the other side of the equation, the “heavier” oils are much safer than the lighter ones (gasolines).
As the fire safety manager at a large refinery told me (during mandatory fire training) in 1973, “the most dangerous thing the average person comes into contact with is gasoline”. Trust me, he is right! Sorry to go off on a tangent here, but fire safety is a habit.
ENJOY,
Mobilman44
Hello Thanks guys for the info. So now that I know I need two tanks one for diesel and one for oil. What did the oil tank look like ? I think it would be a dark color to help hold the heat ? How did they heat it ? Would they use the same oil to heat the round house and other buildings ? Can anyone tell me where to find some photos or and article on this ? Thanks Frank
Hi!
The oil tanks with a high melting point were heated by “steam tracing”. At Mobil’s refineries we wrapped copper tubing around the pipes and hooked the tubing up to steam lines. The tanks themselves were often lined inside with coils of heavier piping thru which steam was injected.
In really cold climates (Joliet Illinois in winter) you did your best to never let the oil set up - either in lines or tanks. It was much easier and I believe cheaper in the long run to keep steam moving thru the lines continuously.
The tanks for all the liquids were kept clean and nicely painted at the refineries I worked, but typically the ones with the heavy oils (particularly #6, etc) tended to get dirtier faster. Of course the value of the heavy oils is less than the light ends (i.e. gasolines), so in some locations these facilities got more housekeeping attention. The color of the tanks was usually dictated by the company owner - and could be white, grey, silver, black, or whatever the company gurus thought looked best.
About tankages, usually at a refinery the biggest tanks were for crude oil, and the other tanks were for finished or more likely semi-finished products. Those tanks that were “spherical” were for propane or butanes (petroleum that is a gas at normal temps) and they are pressurized. Tanks that are cylindrical are typically for propane and the like. PLEASE note, the above is a generalization - but much more often the case than not.
By the way, I “mis-wrote” in my earlier posting when I said asphalt was a direct result of crude refining. I meant to write “coke” - a very dirty substance for sure. Asphalt is made from the heavy oils (resulting from the crude cracking process), after being mixed with gravel and other “stuff”.
Regarding pictures, I suspect if you go to the image section of google or yahoo and typed in “tank farm”
The Project 819 has waste motor oil and other similar stuff in the tender. Im not sure how the engine performs but in her day she had quite the firebox and good performance for a oil burner. I think her firebox has a ring where oil is sprayed under pressure into the space. Must be hell on earth indeed to boil all of that water.
Homes were heated by fuel oil way back when, it was much cleaner and easier than coal which it replaced.
Could you make a steamer run on desiel fuel? Half tempted to explore that little question. You need compression to fire a desiel but why not need compression to fire oil?
Yes, you can. There are numerous preserved oil-fired steam locos that burn diesel.
Cheers,
Mark.
Homes were heated by fuel oil way back when, it was much cleaner and easier than coal which it replaced.
I don’t know about other areas, but in New England, many still are, using #2 oil. #2 will gel up if exposed to a New England winter, so anyone with an exposed tank generally uses K-1 kerosene.
Andre
Could be any normal vertical tank. There wasn’t a standard. In the one case I am familiar with, the main fuel oil storage tank was underground. It had an internal steam coil to maintain temperature. The fuel oil was then piped (mostly underground) to an elevated day tank (smaller capacity) which also had internal steam heating coils. The tenders were filled from this day tank. Here’s a shot of the tank, it’s about the size of a tank car.
Steam. Normally there would be a stationary boiler (often salvaged from an old steam locomotive) beside the roundhouse that was kept fired up to provide steam for heating, warming (or keeping warm) locomotives, etc. If the railroad used oil for firing locomotives, they would use the same oil for firing the stationary boiler.
Regards
Ed
Mobilman, as one who worked refineries, maybe you can ansewer a question for me [:P] ----
I’ve read that around 1920, gasoline production surpassed kerosene production (kerosene was the primary product oil companies were after, originally) — my question: What was the use and weight/viscosity of the by products? I know that into the 1950’s most oil fields had flares for burning off much of the natural gas. My father (born 1897) used to tell about burning ‘casing head’ gas in old Model Ts — a low grade gasoline with many impurities but was basically free at the well head.
Some western railroads began converting to oil in the 1890’s as oil was discovered — easier to deal with than wood and the Wyoming coal wasn’t well known of. A lighter weight oil than bunker C would have been compatabile with turn of the century locos.
John T. curious in the cow pasture in Central Texas
Hello this is helping me out a lot thank you . Now I have a better idea of what I am looking for and where about it should be located. egmurphy thanks for the photo it helps a lot. I have a good start on my diesel tank and now I can start my oil tank . I will get some photos up in a few days. Thanks for all the help Frank
Here is a more technical write-up from Wikipedia about bunker fuel oil:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunker_fuel#Bunker_fuel
Mark
Hello thanks Mark . I have been working on this for a while and this is what I have so far. This is for my bunker oil the building in the back ground is the boiler house it’s not done yet.
and this is for my diesel fuel
I still have a long way to go but that’s half the fun. Have a nice day Frank
Here is my “scenette” that includes an elevated bunker C fuel tank, a ground-level gasoline tank, and a sand house with office. Most of it came from one kit except for the tank on the elevated structure. The scenette was intended for narrow-gauge shortline layout.
Mark
To add a little more info on the Diesel question. The Alaska Railroad converted one of its 2-8-0 Steamers in the 50’s to run on Diesel. In addition this was one of the wartime S-160 Class Locomotives. You can see some pics and get more information here:
http://www.alaskarails.org/pix/former-loco/eng-drwgs/557.html
and the Pics here:
http://www.alaskarails.org/pix/former-loco/AMHA-557-6346.html
http://www.alaskarails.org/pix/former-loco/ARR-557.html
Enjoy,
NC