QUOTE WITHOUT COMMENT - The publisher of The Railroad that Never Was is Indiana University Press of Bloomington, IN I have found them good to deal with directly, and I suspect the book is available other places online. IU Publication’s release is below. I just got it today. - al-in-chgo
Ehe Railroad That Never Was Vanderbilt, Morgan, and the South Pennsylvania Railroad Herbert H. Harwood, Jr. |
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Driven it’s right of way as the PA Turnpike too many times to count…it would have been a bear of a railroad to operate profitably.
Without spoiling the story too badly, I believe that the PRR interests starting building the ultimate parallel railroad, the New York, West Shore & Buffalo, in response to the Vanderbilts invading their territory with the South Penn.
The original 160 mi. of the Pennsylvania Turnpike construction started in 1938 and in part was done to create work as the country was still fighting to get out of the Great Depression. Of course, there were other reasons to build the Turnpike.
It’s selected route was {is} approximate to to the South Penn routing. And in some locations is right on the same location.
SPRR was surveyed to assult the Alleghenies with a max. grade of 2%…not too much different than PRR or the B&O that crosses the same range of mountains.
The Turnpike was constructed on a max grade of 3%. The difference being the SPRR route was somewhat more circuitous to get to the same elevation at the summits. Hence the lower grade of 2%. Also at the same locations of the 7 tunnels used by the Turnpike. The railroad would have used 2 more, and considered a 3rd one, {near Donigal}. None of the tunnels of the SPRR was bored thru totally when RR construction was haulted in 1885.
One was actually used {later}, though for a RR. Coming down off the Laurel Hill elevation east bound was the Westmoreland Tunnel…and it was finished to allow the PW&S RR to use when it was extended from Ligonier to Somerset. That time frame was around 1900 - 1916.
So I suppose the SouthPenn RR might not have been as difficult {in grades}, as the later Pennsylvania Turnpike was…even that though, certainly was great compared to any other highway across the Al
[(-D]
Yes - and some differences being, that one was finished, put into service, was used by NYC, and has become more important than ever now that the ‘recognized’* big railroad freight market - containers - has shifted over the the NJ side of the Port of New York, and the old NYC main line is mostly just passenger service.
*I say ‘recognized’ because I believe NYC and Long Island are a huge opportunity for rail freight of all kinds - esp. intermodal - but the eastern sides of those rivers seem to be more of a barrier today than they were 100+ years ago.
The West Shore between Weehawken and Albany has indeed become a most useful line, the parts of the West Shore west of Albany much less so.
I would opine that one of the reasons that most of the port facilities were built west of the Hudson was because that’s where available space was located and it was more easily reached by ships.
[quote user=“Modelcar”]
BaltACD:
Driven it’s right of way as the PA Turnpike too many times to count…it would have been a bear of a railroad to operate profitably.
The original 160 mi. of the Pennsylvania Turnpike construction started in 1938 and in part was done to create work as the country was still fighting to get out of the Great Depression. Of course, there were other reasons to build the Turnpike.
It’s selected route was {is} approximate to to the South Penn routing. And in some locations is right on the same location.
SPRR was surveyed to assult the Alleghenies with a max. grade of 2%…not too much different than PRR or the B&O that crosses the same range of mountains.
The Turnpike was constructed on a max grade of 3%. The difference being the SPRR route was somewhat more circuitous to get to the same elevation at the summits. Hence the lower grade of 2%. Also at the same locations of the 7 tunnels used by the Turnpike. The railroad would have used 2 more, and considered a 3rd one, {near Donigal}. None of the tunnels of the SPRR was bored thru totally when RR construction was haulted in 1885.
One was actually used {later}, though for a RR. Coming down off the Laurel Hill elevation east bound was the Westmoreland Tunnel…and it was finished to allow the PW&S RR to use when it was extended from Ligonier to Somerset. That time frame was around 1900 - 1916.
So I suppose the SouthPenn RR might not have been as d
[quote user=“samfp1943”]
Modelcar:
BaltACD:
Driven it’s right of way as the PA Turnpike too many times to count…it would have been a bear of a railroad to operate profitably.
The original 160 mi. of the Pennsylvania Turnpike construction started in 1938 and in part was done to create work as the country was still fighting to get out of the Great Depression. Of course, there were other reasons to build the Turnpike.
It’s selected route was {is} approximate to to the South Penn routing. And in some locations is right on the same location.
SPRR was surveyed to assult the Alleghenies with a max. grade of 2%…not too much different than PRR or the B&O that crosses the same range of mountains.
The Turnpike was constructed on a max grade of 3%. The difference being the SPRR route was somewhat more circuitous to get to the same elevation at the summits. Hence the lower grade of 2%. Also at the same locations of the 7 tunnels used by the Turnpike. The railroad would have used 2 more, and considered a 3rd one, {near Donigal}. None of the tunnels of the SPRR was bored thru totally when RR construction was haulted in 1885.
One was actually used {later}, though for a RR. Coming down off the Laurel Hill elevation east bound was the Westmoreland Tunnel…and it was finished to allow the PW&S RR to use when it was extended from Ligonier to Somerset. That time frame was a
I suspect that the reason the South Penn would have been a “bear of a railroad to operate profitably” is not so much the maximum grade of 2% - but rather, the ‘sawtooth’ profile that is exemplified by all those tunnels. Up one ridge and through a tunnel, then down into a valley, then up to another ridge and through its tunnel . . . Either the trains would have been limited to the small size that a single engine could handle, or it would have become an almost continuous helper district - and neither of those would have been especially fast trains. In comparison, the PRR had comparatively steady grades of not much more than 1%, except for the comparatively short and well-defined helper district between Altoona and Johnstown. And the grade against EB trains on the West Slope is less, something between 1% and 1.5% if memory serves. The B&O’s crossing of the Alleghenies at Sand Patch to the south had steeper grades of 2.2%, but again much shorter and limited as compared to the South Penn.
But some other ‘broader-view’ questions have also occurred to me. As I recall, the ‘conventional wisdom’ is that Andrew Carnegie and the other Pittsburgh industrialists started building the South Penn to avoid the PRR’s high ‘monopolistic’ rates, especially on finished steel products moving to East Coast destinations. But didn’t the B&O get to Pittsburgh as well by that time, and could have served as an alternate route ? (I know the WM didn’t get there until much later.) Likewise, when did the NYC get there, via the P&LE, I believe, but perhaps by another route ? If either or both of those carriers was within reach of Pittsburgh at the time - then what did Carnegie hope to achieve by building yet another route ? The only significant place that the PRR went that wasn’t reached by either the B&O or the NYC was . . . no place. The B&
I can’t dispute what Andrew Carnegie had in mind for his real reasoning to construct the competitive line across that part of Pennsylvania. Perhaps some of all the reasoning you mention Paul…
I just don’t believe the line would not have been competitive in moving freight across that distance to the PRR or the B&O.
All of them either had to go over {or thru}, those mountain ranges to get from point A to point B…Either with tunnels and thru and below said summit, or as the PRR did {in several locations}…go around and thru the gaps {that rivers created}, and add mileage to said line.</