Another editorial. Why hasn’t some of the conservative paper and media not come out with counter editorials ?
http://www.nj.com/opinion/index.ssf/2015/07/christies_delusional_attack_on_amtrak_editorial.html
Much more fun to read some of the ‘comments below.’ (Get past the first few that are the usual wiseguy stuff… [;)])
I quote one in its entirety as both a start and an example, by a commenter with username “trainman”:
"Many still feel that Governor Chris Christie sunk ARC, because of his announced fears that the state would have to bear the burden of cost overruns. That’s true as far as it goes; however many writers, columnists and editorialists still harbor the misbegotten illusion that both ideology and political maneuvering were the principal basis of his dismissal of this undertaking. While an uninvolved individual could be expected arrive at that conclusion, there was far more to it. Here’s the rest of the story:
"When Governor Christie sunk ARC in late October 2010, NJT’s final New York City configuration was a “deep cavern,” three track over three track stub end terminal below Manhattan’s 34th Street solely for its own usage. Three key deficiencies argued for a revision in the project’s conceptual goals: 1.) it prohibited Amtrak access to the tunnels and its own Penn Station platforms; 2.) it eliminated all redundancy between old and new tunnel bores for both Amtrak and NJT in the event (as now seems the case, thanks to Super Storm Sandy) one of the 1910 legacy tunnels had to removed from service for repair and rehabilitation and 3.) it blocked any track extension (originally a key element in ARC) from Penn Station to, or in the vicinity of, Grand Central Terminal. Major changes to ARC occurred in No
Wizlish: Thanks for the in depth review. Unable to follow ARC during the first part of the proposal. The no reduntdancy and ability for only NJT to use the tunnels and stub end is revealing.
As I posted it now seems even more likely for whatever reason Christie only used the cost over runs as the reason. IMHO maybe he was not ready to take on the establishment that had put so much political capital and time into building a very faulty design ? Could it have been that he foresaw that some of the problems you mentioned would cause attempts to fix the problems ? As well an only NJT project would drop all over runs onto NJ.
It may have been LaHood’s insistence to build ARC as designed prevented Christie from just saying " lets go back to the drawing board." IMO he should have bitten the bullet and probably would have if he had known “Sandy” was coming. It is interesting that even after Sandy that he did not cashier any one at NJT until the Super Bowl fiasco.
Another article.
Another NY times today
Yet another article.
http://secondavenuesagas.com/2015/07/27/the-ghost-of-the-arc-tunnel-haunts-christie-as-candidate/
Anotheer article
http://www.northjersey.com/opinion/chris-christie-has-a-case-of-tunnel-vision-1.1381412?page=all
^all those articles are so much political posturing and hot air. If the hot air could be converted into electricity - the entire East Coast wouldn’t need any power plants.
More power plant heat.
http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2015/07/both_nj_and_ny_committed_to_new_tunnel_christie_sa.html
Two Amtrak reports of progress of Gateway. 1st part of Hudson yard box 96% complete.
another
http://nec.amtrak.com/sites/default/files/Gateway_Amtrak%20Factsheet%20Spring%202015.pdf
NARP blog about the non building of Gateway tunnel.
The Port Authority has just announced a $4 billion plan to rebuild the terminals at LaGuardia Airport. One aviation expert guesses that over-runs will double that cost. I can see the RR tunnels being put off again.
Star Ledger new article and video about tunnel. Like the analogy about wasting down payment after not buying a house that is flawed.
http://www.nj.com/opinion/index.ssf/2015/08/the_source_of_your_commuter_hell_your_governors_cr.html
Moran comes across like a partisan hack. Aging of the infrastructure was very evident for years before the current Congress was elected.
Como says state can’t pay for tunnels but he can build new auto bridge over Hudson and rebuild LGA terminal. Now nothing is going to prevent air passengers from flying from LGA terminal if it is not rebuilt but a north river tunnel failure ???
Read the actual letter, and the ‘power plant heat’ article earlier. Then look at the funding sources for the ARC tunnel (which actually was a NY-NJ project with little more than peripheral significance to Amtrak, perhaps by intent). I suspect part of the current ‘impasse’ – perhaps a larger part than has been admitted – involves the non-return of ‘Federal’ funds allocated for the NJ part of the ARC tunnel before Christie killed it.
A major part of the Gateway design is that it supports high-speed rail through the New York/New Jersey region, and a great part of New York State itself does not benefit from the project - less than from the Tappan Zee giving access to upstate, for example. That makes it harder for Cuomo to support the several billion dollars’ worth of design and construction that suit the project for the purpose of high speed without subsidy from the Federal government. Christie has already mentioned including the Port Authority (with its toll revenues) as one of the financing bases to reduce the nominal state involvements.
In my opinion, ARC in its final form as the ‘tunnel to Macy’s basement’ was a wrong answer to a question nobody really asked, even if it was by final intent directed at being a New York-New Jersey local project. My understanding is that Gateway will continue with through platforms from its tracks,
Of course we can go back and lay blame on every Congress since, I don’t know, the creation of Penn Central. But do yesterday’s failures exempt today’s “leaders” from stepping up and being responsible? Shouldn’t. So the fact is still that the current Congress isn’t doing much of anything about this situation.
But much of Moran’s point was that Gov. Christie just cancelled ARC (whatever its merits or lack thereof) and did nothing to help the situation. That was grandstanding. Leadership would have been to say, ARC is not the right solution, we need to renegotiate, we need a real solution, not just going into Macy’s basement.
I don’t care about party affiliation, I don’t even live anywhere near NY-NJ, but we need new tunnels NOW. Tunnels that connect to the network and will still be an asset 100 years from now.
Agree that we need to forget about the past for the most part. It is now and the future that planners need to plan for design of new tunnels tunnels.
There is a misconception that has crept in to these discussions. The present North River tunnels were jacked through the bottom sediment but as far as know not thru any of bedrock in the North river. Did go thru bedrock both under Palasaids and Manhatten The tunnels which are of iron construction actually move with the tides. That means constant bending of joints. How much will leave to others to inform us.
The new tunnels will be bored below the river bed thru bedrock. This will make them much more robust and not subject to the tides. However that may make the approachs to NYP steeper. That explains why the box tunnel is so deep we have seen in construction pictures. A concern is if the repairs are not started soon sections of the present tunnels might have to be replaced with new steel sections ?
EDIT; Here is a profile of the north river tunnels but note no indication that hudson is in silt.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/PCPOST_HudsonRiverTubes_Diagram.png
dn
Streak,
The North (Hudson) River tunnels were not laid in an excavated trench. They were excavated through shields jacked through the sedement. The tunnel’s outer structural members are iron or steel rings about 18" long bolted together around the circumfrence of the tube. See Conquering Gotham by Jill Jones
Without skimming the whole book I can not find how deep bedrock is but it is MUCH deeper than the current tunnels which feature grades of about 2% in each direction. Elevation of Penn Station is fixed, so deeper tunnels all in rock will require much steeper grades, particularly on east end than is currently the case. West portal could be moved to the west, but again Penn Station is not going anywhere.
Mac
I think before this goes on much more, everyone should read this:
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/42149/42149-h/42149-h.htm
and take careful notes of the detail. It solves your questions.
One point about the iron lining is that it is relatively immune to chloride corrosion compared to any of the usual structural steels. If there were a problem with tunnel sections ‘working’ with the tide, it could logically be solved with relatively simple ballasting over the top of the tube, constructing cofferdams with ‘cells’ to hold the heavy aggregate or other material in place laterally, or anchoring the tubes with stressed ‘tendons’ to underlying bedrock.
The major ‘rock’ portion of Gateway will involve traversing the Palisades, a volcanic dike for those who don’t know the area, with the appropriate lateral and vertical curves for whatever level of high speed is expected. I personally expect a fairly sharp grade on the Manhattan side (to assist braking coming eastbound and acceleration going westbound) but full high-speed vertical curve magnitude and transition perhaps as early as departure from the riverbed area on the New Jersey side.