Getting back in after 25 years, and I'm absolutely flustered with my trackplan.

Model Railroader Layouts and layout building
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I might as well jump right in with a short introduction. When I was younger I had a pretty nice L-shaped layout (6ft by 12ft) which I enjoyed but lost interest as I entered high school. I took my 6 year old son to this past Train Show in Milwaukee and was instantly hooked again. The $80 4x8 Trainline set can only last so long and I have to get going here to get a very eager 6 year old off of my back. I’m also eager to start advancing on this. I browsed the forums for a while, and have been trying to absorb what I can. This hobby seems to have advanced greatly compared to what I can remember from 25 years ago. So here’s my situation:

I am not trying to reproduce or prototype any particular “era” although most likely everything will be post WWII if not very modern.

Givens and Druthers:

I really only have 2 “givens”: A mountain of some sort so that I can have one or both mainlines go through a tunnel. I also need it to have a place to put a Brawa cable car set which my son pretty much expects. The other “given” is some sort of bridge, possibly the single or double truss bridge like Walther’s Cornerstone bridges. I suppose that I can cut out some river in the 2" foam.

Druthers: I’d like some sort of mine going into the mountain but it just seems to occupy too much space as shown in the attached layout plans. I’d also like 2 main lines, mainly so that I can let my son comfortably operate a train on the outer loop while the inner line and any attached branches and yards are reserved for me until my son is older.

Otherwise, I’m pretty much flexible and open to anything. My area’s been defined and I have already finished my bench work and have it topped with 2" foam. It’s a walk-around island or “doughnut” with a dimension of 8ft by 16ft. I don’t plan to operate from the center, it’s essentially a cutout for working on the layout.

And now comes my problem: I just can’t seem to to draw a satisfactory trackplan. I just don’t seem to have the space to

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John,

Unfortunately, you have an enormous conflict here – two things that absolutely don’t go together: an eager child and a new layout. As you’re discovering, planning a layout takes time (and it’s unfortunate that you’ve already built benchwork without defining your track plan, because those two things are better done in the opposite order: know what your going to put on top before you try to fill in the bottom) and the child ain’t gonna wait. Plus, you have a 6 year old son… your time and budget are only going to get tighter for a couple of years. Trust me on that one: I have a 14 yr old, a 9 yr old, and a 7 yr old.

I would avoid that second plan, because If you’re already crawling through that donut hole, the last thing you want is a head-knocker in the middle of it.

Now, let’s look at some of your other “issues”. First of all, if you’re planning elements of your layout to suit your son, you won’t be doing much in the way of realistic operations for a while, so why worry about it? As far as turning trains goes, why do you need to? The double crossover at the bottom will let you change the direction a train is traveling on a given track, thus getting access to all of your sidings. Turning the trains is more of an issue on a point to point layout where the train runs out of space to go forward, and the only option is to turn it and go back.

Assuming that you have access to all sides around the edges, you have lots of usable real estate here (you don’t want to plan on reaching more than two feet in unless you have some method of crawling over your layout without destroying it. So I’m not sure that I understand why you can’t fit more track in if you need it. Your second plan uses the real estate better, but have you considered where all those stub tracks are going and what they’re doing? Or are you just chucking sidings into your layout?

I would decide which industries you’re trying t

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My first impression is that you’re trying to cram too much track into too small a space – too many turnouts and sidings. Once you begin actual tracklaying you may discover that nothing is going to fit into the allocated space; not to mention the cost of all those turnouts. And how are you going to control them? Electrically or hand throw? If one side of this layout is going to be against a wall, you’ll have to crawl under every time you want to change a turnout if they are not electrically controlled, or you’ll have to operate the layout from the hole in the middle if you’re going to use hand-throws.

You may be young and nimble enough to continually crawl under the layout to reach things in the center, but at my age I would never consider such a plan.

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Hi, and welcome back!

Like you, I was “away” for about 40yr. Things have changed mightily, to be sure. No more burlap bag scenery, whoopie!

I know your son is anxious to get going, but you are right in being a bit concerned about your plan. Can I suggest something relatively simple to get trains running for a starter? Meanwhile, your best action would be a lot of reading and doodling. Besides “Model Railroader” mag, I got a lot of inspiration from “101 Trackplans” from our hosts, Kalmbach, and other of their publications.

Something you can get running quickly that can be added to later would be good. Being prepared to rip track up and redo can be daunting, but is a fact of life. There’s always a better way to do something as your skills improve…

A quick comment on your layout, if I may: 8x16’ is a reasonably large area, so you should be able to get in the elements you desire. They need not be huge entities in themselves, but often just hint at what is not quite seen: no need to model the tailings piles around a mine; everyone knows they’re around somewhere, but they aren’t important to your train operation, unless the hot-slag tipple itself is. You are losing a lot of useful space in the centre of the doughnut, with most of the trackage running along the edges. No chance of making it more C-shaped? Or E-shaped with a peninsula? I assume there is standing room completely around the table so you can reach everything. Long reaches will play havoc with foreground scenery, and guess where the trouble spots will be…

You mentioned staging. Do try to plan for it now, as it can be difficult to add later. Building it to the plan can be done later. Mine is under a mountainous area that is reachable from the aisle. Leave enough vertical space above it to get in there with tools and see what you are doing. Many 1960’s trackplans do not consider staging, and that is a pro

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I don’t have any very eager bouncing 6 years olds, and I don’t have any on TV.

But I can toss in some advice to think about, knowing kids, adults, trains and what has passed through here on discussions in such matters.

But as mentioned, your ideas and operations will clash with your very eager 6 year old’s. He will most likely grow tired at some point {probably sooner than you think} of just running a train around a loop for ever and ever while daddy and daddy’s loops and trains and trackwork do other more interesting things. ANd like many teenagers, as other interests creep in, he may then loose total interest in it at all, or when he goes away to college or moves out at least.

Your ideas are for an operating layout that has some “adult” entertainment value for you. You can always build to your specifications later.

What I would advise you to do is to come up with a plan, perhaps like the first plan, that can grow with teh both of you, but will primarily be centered around your son’s interests. Let him help decide what should be on teh layout to be fun to “play with”, and that will keep his interest in this father-son bonding expedition. Even if he wants to run a THomas the tank engine beside your beloved Dash 8, or special 4-8-4. YOU can always readapt or build a new layout to your tastes later when he moves on. ANd trust me, he will.

FOr now, let him help choose what looks interesting to him in the way of industries, buildings, houses and locos and RR cars for the layout and let him help build/design scenery. It used to be you could help a child staple down a green grass mat on the layout table and he’d be happy he “planted grass”, let them paint black “roads” on it in places which would thrill them, though it looked cheap and terrible to an expereinced modeler to whom it gave a migraine just looking at it… You can buy and “steer” him in a direction by buying him layout stuff for b-days

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John,

Welcome.

I’ll keep this short and to the point (s)

  • Don’t use the second plan. The middle section is a head knocker. Access is important.
  • In any plan you use, try to keep the track from running parallel to the benchwork edges. Right now, each of the four side of your mainline look essentially the same.
  • Use the outside corners more. For example, pinch one of the ends of the track plan so that it eliminates the short straight track in between the curves. Kind of shaped like an egg laying on its side. A mine and a yard can fit on opposite corners, lying outside of the mainline loop. You now have the mine and yard lying inside of the loop, which makes them to seem to take up more space.
  • In between the mine and the yard can be your mountain and tunnel. The mountain will also tend to separate the mine and yard scenes, which will help create the illusion of distance.

From a basic plan like that, you can add sidings, spurs, and bridges around the layout as you choose. I think the side ways lying egg shape will provide a good shape from which to add other elements. Try drawing something like that and post it and we can help you take it from there.

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Hi JR.

you browsed this forum for some time, hhmmm. Two things are obvious, see the room not the layout only and plan first (think first) and build later. It’s told almost every day on here.

I agree with some reactions; almost impossible to mix adult wishes with the of a very young kid.

With a more adequate use of the space you obviously have it is not impossible to get all what you want into a plan, though it means a major rebuild of your bench work. Better change it now, then spending loads of money on something you will regret soon. If you like to go that way i can help you. You should start by making a scale drawing of your room.

IMAO you are still thinking in 8 x 4’s; though a rather big one. With a more clever use of your space you might get your wishes come true.

smile

Paul

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Paul,

I agree with the basic thought that a different use of space might serve the OP better, but if you read closely, he has already finished his benchwork and covered it with 2" foam… so now he’s looking at tossing out a lot of effort and material if he’s going to change the basic configuration.

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Wow, I didn’t realize that I I was in such a difficult situation and that I did so many things wrong. I didn’t know that children and adults could create such conflict in model railroading. I thought that that model railroading was supposed to be a bonding experience between father and son. Well it’s obvious that the trackplan has to go, done. The benchwork was built in 4 modules and can be easily taken apart, so at least some of that should be salvageable. Believe me, the size of the layout IS based on the available space that I have and 8’ by 16’ is it. I could submit a scale drawing of the basement area to show why I’m limited to 8’x16’ but it won’t change anything. Unfortunately it is what it is. Circumstances allow it to be a walkaround with access from all sides and that’s something that won’t change either. I’ll start from scratch again and hopefully have something new to submit again in a couple of weeks.

I apologize for wasting people’s time for stating the obvious that I should have known,

Thanks,

–John P.

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Hi John

Pleases don’t apologize, that is what these forums are for… to toss ideas around and find what value anything has before casting it in stone. We all started somewhere, and learning by doing is, IMHO, the best way.

No query is a waste of time. Some folk on the forum have a lot of experience, and some can be very focused. I daresay we all want everyone to create what will be the greatest model of all time, with the fewest stumbles.

So, by all means, ask anything that concerns you. Likely someone has an answer, or close to it. You don’t have to go it alone.

Above all, have fun. George

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Actually the benchwork will do just fine as it is. It’s the track plan that I would change. The yard space is kind of just thrown in IMO. I would plan some type of industries and plan the trackwork from there. A couple of mains with several sidings for industries would look good. Try to treat the layout just like the real thing. A main track or tracks connecting towns and industries. Break the layout into sections and treat each one like a separate scene, which is what the real thing is.

If you don’t know what industry you want in a specific section just alot some space for it and add a turnout to the main so you can access it when you decide.

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Hi,

What do you think about this idea; a lap for your son, point to point operation for you.

A mine, a small yard, tunnels and bridges, but also grades.

Or from the outside, the grade is on the branch only. The red track, for your son, is flat and can be build first. Your part, staging, merely for empty coal-hoppers, the yard and the incline towards the mine could be build later.

The tunnel on the left would be a spot for the cable car.

Smile

Paul

smile

Paul

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Thanks guys, Much of this post is directed at Paul, but there are also questions here which everybody could answer and I would appreciate anyone’s input.

Paul, I like that 2nd plan you made. I mean, I REALLY like that 2nd plan. It does have everything that would satisfy both my son and me. I always wanted to use some sort of grade, and they always look neat in the various books and magazines, but quite frankly, I shied away from them because I didn’t think that I could properly make them. But I actually think that I can do this one. By making this as a two part build, and having some trackwork already down from the first part, I think that it will be much easier to conceptualize and therefore build the groundwork and track for the second part. And with my benchwork I have an extra 1 1/2 feet in from the left and right side which will give me some space to add a couple of structures. I don’t think it can get much better. The only thing that I would like to try, would be to possibly run an industry track off of the red track into one or both of of the upper corners. That’s assuming that there is even enough room for a small industry or structure of some sort.

I have several questions:

What software did you use to make this plan? I am comfortable with XtrakCad at the most basic level. Is there any way that this can be inserted into, or converted to Xtrackcad? Or would I/should I draw this over from scratch?

I’m concerned about the 22" radius. Which ones are the 22" and what is the largest radius? The reason that I ask is because I have several cars that call for a minimum 24" radius. I did buy one of the very long auto carrier cars and tried it on several different radii and even at 24", I be concerned about derailments. It only appeared “normal” at 28" or 30". This is an extreme case but I would always like the option to run some longer cars like some passenger cars in the future. I would just be looking to have the ability to run them on the “red” loop and be able to

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With that sized layout I’d limit the very long rolling stock unless you really have to have them. Shorter cars will run better. A radius of up to 26 or so on the outside and 24 inside is possible with sidings down to 18 or even 15 will work with switchers and smaller rollign stock.

A program called anyrail is very easy to use but costs 59 bucks. You do spend less time planning with it since it’s easier to run.

Also with a kid the best thing to do is not plan too much and ask his advice. Kids have great imaginations but need to be up and running quickly and have some ownership or they will quickly get bored. If the layout is something dictated to them it’s never really theirs and they shy away from it.

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I’m late to the party here, but a grade up to the mine is exactly what I did on a layout back in the 1980s to get a lot more track in the same space. A steep grade up to the mine might even desireable. If a certain locomotive can’t pull a whole train up, simply split the train into smaller pieces that it can pull up. This is called doubling the grade and is a prototypical practice.

I don’t know of any place that has the lists as you are asking for. Each issue of model railroader reviews a certain locomotive or two. Searching around you could probably find the review for a specific locomotive you were interseted in. However, 2.5% is not something I would worry too much about. You could even pretend that 6 cars at a time is the maximum whether or not the loco could reall pull 20 up. Besides the empties are going up and the full coming down so brakes might be more of an issue :slight_smile:

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hi John

basic understanding of model-railroad design is at stake.

The best way to understand it, is by using squares. A square has a length and width of the minimum mainline radius plus 4 to 6 inches.

The normal 8 x 4 layout, with a 18" radius is 4+ x 2+ = 10 squares large. Most of us do know the issues with a 8 x 4 design, not enough length to get a station done, even without using easements and rather limited in radius possibilities.

A second standard is the use of appropriate radii and switch numbers in comparison with the length of your cars, the longest ones!!

Some rules of thumb, if your longest car is 6 inches in HO (40 feeters), your minimum radius should be 3 times that length, so 3 x 6 is 18"; and the appropriate switch numbers are 3 and 4 (the last in use with S-curves, in particularly in cross-overs); divide the length of your HO car by 2.

For 60 feeters, 8 inches in HO, the min radius will be 24" and the switch-numbers 4 and 5.

For 70 feeters (9,6 inches long) the values are 29" for the radius and #5 and #6 for the switches.

Your beloved 90 feet long auto racks, 12 inch in HO need a 36" radius and #6 and #8 switches.

In terms of squares your layout has a 4,5 x 2,25 = 10 size; what you can get in is exactly what in most 8x4’s is done.

Loads of designs for 8x4’s can be found, just look for the one you prefer the very most. Double all dimensions and your layout is ready for modern auto-racks and coaches. You might start to understand why so many are building in N-scale.

The yard design you tried to copy needs 8 squares in length at least, why you will not succeed if you only have 4 is pretty clear. Omitting a cross-over , but still without easements, it might be done in 7 squares.

So i started the other way around; the length you have is 16 feet. Divided by 8 you will have 24" by 24" squares. the minimum radius should be between 18" and 20"

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What ever layout out you go with I would not glue anything down to start with. You will find a spot you had a siding in the plans that will not work or wont be big enough for what you planned and a spot where you did not have a siding in the plan, you put one in, not that it is has ever happend to me [:-^] Or the dreaded you work way around the table only to find things done line up. Get it all down, run your trains some just to make sure you happy with it then secure the road bed and track.

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Thanks Paul,

You have given me more some more information for me to chew on. I still like your 2nd trackplan and will hopefully be able to draw it up in XtrackCad and play around with it. With more confidence in using grades now, I’ll start looking again at the trackplan database for more ideas that I can possibly use.

Thanks,

John P

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Actually, I did plan on doing that. I first planned to draw the outline in chalk or pencil to see how the track will actually “fit.” I have plenty of old Code 100 flextrack from my previous layout that I could probably use, or I can just go out and use new Code 83 track since that is what I plan to use and I will have to purchase Code 83 turnouts anyway.

Thanks,

John P