Givens & Druthers for my new Layout

Model Railroader Layouts and layout building
1

Howdy-

I sat down tonight and started really thinking about my givens and druthers for the new layout I’m planning (links at bottom to space diagram). What do you all think?

Another question I have is-- uh, er-- what should I put in all this space !?!?!? :slight_smile: I’ve been scratching my head for several weeks now trying to figure out what a track plan should look like and where to put industries. What industries to model, etc.

I have my own thoughts about a track plan which I’ll share in due course, but I’m hoping to see what other people might do with the space without my ideas getting in the way. I’d like to throw open the discussion to anybody with an opinion (Gee, where can I find anybody like that around here!?!?! [:-^]) and hopefully a moment to make a sketch I can look at to see visually how it could go.

Thanks for everybody’s help so far-- I have gotten a ton of good information and ideas from folks here already. I’m working to take it to the next step now and start getting a track plan together.

John

Railroad Name: [The Undecided & To-Be-Determined]
Location: (Region: Southern PA to NE VA; or else PRR Port Road or similar)
Era: [TBD - exact time not yet fixed, thinking general 1950’s-1960’s or else 1964-1968]
Route: [TBD, see above]
Prototype: Pennsylvania Railroad; or else a fictional/plausible subsidiary or feeder that would use a lot of PRR equipment

2

you need to start by deciding what you want to model . if you pick a prototype you can then start researching which towns , industries etc. you can include in your space . if you don’t do that then what you’re doing is asking people here to design a railroad they like into your space , and that’s not going to work . it may get you some ideas , but you’ll still be a long way from having a layout .

another possibility is taking the info you have and checking out some of the layout building services advertising in MR . i think most of them will design a layout for you (not that it will be inexpensive , but it will be a good design) and you can build it yourself

you could also look for people in your area who are interested in building and operating a model railroad but might not have the space you do and starting an informal operating group . you can take advantage of each persons strong poiints in design and construction , and the work will go quicker than if you attempt it all yourself

good luck , and keep us posted

ernie

3

Give a man a fish…

Teach a man to fish…

As said before, you should have some better ideas WHAT you want to model, then start figuring out what is available per your G&D list. Before long you’ll have multiple doodles and designs you can start picking and choosing from to suit your needs and your tastes.

4

Actually I have been researching quite a bit on what I want to model and have narrowed it down pretty specifically except for exact route and decision on whether to do a “PRR” layout or a plausible subsidiary. I have posted a number of times about this stuff and interaction with the good folks here have really helped me hone in and focus on specifics. Here are some of the threads:

How Do RR Interchanges Work: Specifically PRR?

http://cs.trains.com/forums/1418762/ShowPost.aspx

What is Interlocking?

http://cs.trains.com/forums/1433719/ShowPost.aspx

Question About Motive Power:

http://cs.trains.com/forums/1436977/ShowPost.aspx

Doubling the Length by Doubling the Plan?

http://cs.trains.com/forums/1439806/ShowPost.aspx

Hand-Laid Tracks Ups and Downs?

http://cs.trains.com/forums/1433594/ShowPost.aspx

5

See answer to previous post. Also I have whole notebooks full of notes and doodles. But I don’t have a lot of MR experience (ie. actually building layouts and operating trains) so am hoping some experienced folks can give me some pointers. I’ve also been reading all the books I can get my hands on, buying boxes and boxes of old back issues of MR and similar off of ebay, and combing the net for ideas, inspiration and information. Some of the better books I’ve read are:

Track Planning for Realistic Operation, John Armstrong

How to Build model Railroad Benchwork, Lynn Wescott

The Model Railroader’s Guide to Freight Yards, Andy Sperandeo

The V&O Story, Allen McClelland

Realistic Model Railroading: An Introduction to Layout Design Elements, Tony Koester

The Railroad, What it is and What it does: The Introduction to Railroading, John Armstrong

How to Operate Your Model Railroad, Bruce Chubbs

Model Railroading With John Allen, Lynn Wescott

The Fabulous Franklin & South Manchester Railroad, George Sellios

and others

Scoured scores of prototype history & photos books, especially for Pennsylvania, Norfolk & Western, New York Central, Baltimore & Ohio, Virginian, and Western Maryland.

Treked all over Virginia, parts of Maryland and Pennsylvania (including trips to Altoona, Horsehoe Curve, Strausburg & Steamtown) to view, research and photograph actual locations, equipment and talk to people who worked on those railroads.

Visited countless web sites including:

Joe Fugate’s Siskiyou Line website: (Read nearly every word in your forums, haven’t gotten your videos yet but they’re on my list)

http://siskiyou-railfan.net/e107_plugins/content/content.php?content.26

Charlie Comstock’s Bear Creek & South Junction website:

http://s145079212.onlinehome.us/rr/index.shtml

6

ok , from your G’s & D’s it looked to me that you hadn’t done much research yet , my mistake, you could probably write a book !

what you need to do now is focus , none of us can take all the info that’s running through your head and turn it into a layout , you have to sit down and start drawing where you think the benchwork will go , what towns you think will go where , and what industries you really want based on all the info you have .

you can start by just drawing a straight line , marking towns on it and then adding details later . then you try to figure out how to fit it in your space , and if you have to remove some , or add more

another method is to take a map of the area you’re thinking of modelling and either finding the real tracks on it , or drawing in where your freelanced branch etc. would go

then you try to turn that into a track plan

then we can critique that to help you figure out what works and what doesn’t . at the moment your slate is too blank for us to do anything with . if you were building a 4x8 layout someone would whip up a plan for you in an hour and you could go from there , this is much larger project , and you may be months just in the planning stage before you ever lay a foot of track

7

Er, already in months of planning I’m afraid. But am being patient because I really want a good outcome. I understand your point(s) and will upload some doodles later this evening when I get home.

Okay-- here is a quick and dirty idea of what I sort of have in mind :

http://picasaweb.google.com/bratwizard/CurrentModelRailroadLayoutSpace/photo?authkey=ijq_iXuJzOU#5216636460542939826

I did this on the fly with a paint program so nothing is cast in stone and yards / sidings only drawn in such a way as to suggest their presence and not specific tracks or functionality.

Tan-ish areas are visible portions of layout. Width (depth of shelf) not absolute but approx what I think my wife will accept. The space in the main area where the big yard is she has already told me I can do pretty much what I want there. Considered a peninsula but think I’m more in keeping with her idea of the room if I don’t.

Yellowish areas are places where non-visible staging could happen. None are very deep but most could be stacked vertically to permit more staging tracks. Probably easier to fiddle with shallow tracks anyway.

Reddish areas are problem areas that I need to figure out how to deal with. The one in the lower-left corner is the emergency exterior door that needs to be accessible at all times and by anybody but can otherwise be scenicked / incorporated into the layout space.

The biggest sticking point with my wife is that the layout not encroach the room too much. She’d prefer not at all, but that ain’t gonna happen. So since she’s being a sport, I’m being one too :slight_smile:

8

I have had the same problems that you do, in one form or another. I had to go back to the basics. Trains move goods from one town to another, so trains go from town to town and city to city. That is the purpose of a railroad, so that is what needs to be simulated. So that is where you start. How many towns and cities can you fit in and still have some open country in between?

I start by making up a scale drawing of the layout room. 3/4 inches to 1 foot is a good scale to use. Then I look for switching layouts that I like. Small modules if you like. These are usually drawn in 3/4 inches to the foot. Make copies of the ones you like, cut them out and place them on your room drawing. Each module can be a town. Move them around on the paper. Make changes as you go. Make copies as you go. All the modules are usually designed well with a good track plan and will operate well too. Once you have selected your modules, then you can connect tracks between them. This will give you a very good beginning. As you see things on other layouts that you like and want to incorporate them into your plan, change it. Soon you will get something that you like and want to build.

Look at the layout Chesapeake and Atlantic in the latest garage layout contest. That is mine, and it was designed like I just explained to you. The goal was to get a mainline run as long as I could, thus it goes twice around the room. Interconnect to the outside world, provide for on-line industry switching, and have a coal branch. Some of the scenery is going to be a challenge, but I like a good challenge.

9

Those are some pretty good suggestions-- I hadn’t thought about the switching layout part- that makes some good sense.

Do you have a link to your layout?

John

10

I would start by drawing/sketching a schematic of your plan. Nothing to scale nothing in detail.

Then sort of lay it around the edges of the room to see how it fits. Then move the end over 10-20 feet and lay the plan around the room again. Do that few times just sketching things, then reverse the direction of the plan and lay it around the room the other way. 90% of the sketches won’t work but gradually you will start to see where the things you want fit. Then work on each section, sketching it in in more detail and finally draw it to scale.

Don’t think this will be a one afternoon process. The bigger the area, the more time you should spend and the more time it should take to plan it. It took me over a year of fiddling around to come up with the plan for my revised layout plan.

Dave H.

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I don’t know how long it will be up, but here it is:

http://www.chipengelmann.com/trains/Photos/10x20/10x20ContestEntry02.html

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i’ll make your link clickable

http://picasaweb.google.com/bratwizard/CurrentModelRailroadLayoutSpace/photo?authkey=ijq_iXuJzOU#5216636460542939826

i don’t know if anyone else will have the same issue , but when i view the drawing the text is way too small to read . unfortunately i don’t have a solution . maybe if it’s a problem on my end someone else will suggest something

you have a couple of places where , if you’re the engineer walking alongside your train , suddenly you have to be at a different point on the layout . if you’re planning on several operators it’s best to avoid these if possible

13

J,

Ernie touched on this but one question which I didn’t see addressed in your info: Do you know other train guys? Have you visited other layouts in your area?.

Just curious, I figure with all the other stuff you have already done, I’m sure you have this covered.

IMHO, visiting operational layouts is one of the most fun and inspiring parts of the hobby. It also can give you lots of good ideas. My operating plan is pretty much stolen from a local train guy’s layout that I admire (I 'm hoping he won’t notice[:D]).

The modeling group that I hang with has kept me going and inspired all sorts of improvements in techniques. They also provide a ready source of information and (god forbid) advice.

FYI - It took me about 6 months of messing with my track plan before I came up with one that I decided to build. I second the idea of a protoype…While my layout is freelanced (proto-lanced, more accurate description) it does use LDEs from a variety of sources and has helped me to narrow my rolling stock purchases down to specific roads and a specific era. Unfortunately the locos for the roads and era are available mostly in brass…On the plus side, it has slowed down my impulse buying.

My two cents,

Guy

14

Yes, the text is hard to read if you’re viewing it online. However, if you download the image to your own computer or browser, you can see it in full resolution and its readable then. However, most of the text simply points to issue areas such as doors, utility access and the like, or areas where I cannot build out into the middle of the floor. The larger text boxes have the dimensions for the area and I think they are possible to read.

As for your other comment-- that’s a good point. Where, more specifically, are you thinking that’s a problem. I’ve tried to be considerate of that, but unfortunately the basement layout is such that its difficult to have as open a plan as I would like. But feel free to suggest something-- that’s what I’m looking for-- good feedback, suggestions and ideas.

BTW, I was up until four am this morning working on a real track plan in 3rd Planit. As an aside, that program is a real pain to use and yet it can do so much to help visualize and really illustrate what can be done and what cannot. I’d like to shake the programmer’s hand and tell him “Job well done” while simultaneously slapping him silly and ask him “what the heck was he thinking” when he designed the user interface. You’d never know I actually like the program a lot though would you??? [If he’s out there reading this and thinking “I suppose you could do better…”, send me the source code and a non-disclosure agreement and I’ll be happy to take a look] I just wish it had an easier, more intuitive interface and stuff was coordinated and arranged better. Also a couple of features that seem obvious that (as far as I can tell) a

15

Actually that is one area I don’t have covered very well. I have a difficult schedule, a long commute, and daddy duties that generally take up most of my day. My wife works staggered hours so she has more time in the mornings with our son (he’s one) and I get the evenings-- he’s a great kid but a handful and constant attention requirement (not that I’m complaining, he’s a lot of fun to hang with :slight_smile: So when I said before that I only have a few hours a week and only some weeks, that really is the truth and not an exaggeration. Plus I’m also into electronics, programming, robotics and home-automation. So I have quite a bit to keep me busy.

On the other hand, I’d like to know some folks and visit some layouts. There probably are some folks around-- I live in a pretty big metro area (Herndon VA). I’ve Googled for clubs in the area but so far the few I’ve found are pretty far away. It would be nice if there was an active club in the Herndon, Reston, Sterling, Ashburn or Great Falls area. Farther than that though all I could really do is go visit sometime. Too far away to do regularly.

On the other hand, as W.C. Fields used to say, I’m not sure I’d want to belong to a club who’d have me for a member… :slight_smile:

Truthfully though, I have really enjoyed visiting the online photos and galleries of people wherever they are. I really like looking at what other people do, pay very close attention. Pick up all sorts of ideas for details, scenicking, coloration, “little things”, and whatnot. My only complaint is that everyone always seems to put up postage-stamp sized photos and its hard to zoom in to see all their wonderful details! What’s the point of doing great modeling if nobody can see it in the end? And I want to take a moment and thank each

16

oddly enough when i download the picture and try to blow it up it just gets really big pixels and i still can’t read it . might be one place where using a mac is a disadvantage , but not important to this discussion

here is a very quick and dirty idea of what i mean . you may find it changes your plan more than you want .

http://s43.photobucket.com/albums/e394/ernieme/?action=view&current=Layout_Test_2.jpg

now a train would start at the big wye in the upper right , runs around the walls until it gets to the loop (near the middle of your space) and then runsback towards the wye . as i’m writing this i’m realizing you probably wouldn’t want to join the loop back to the mainline at the point i’ve drawn , but i think you’ll get the idea

ernie

p.s. i

17

John, first I will say I know your pain as to what you want. I now want a round the wall layout in my garage with 2 mains and two industrial branch lines. But putting pen to paper is ruff.

One thing that stuck in my mind after reading the Armstrong book is to many Engines and Rolling Stock gets in the way of running your bench. You will lose a lot of spaces with the big yards you have in the drawing. I have yet to get into switching, so to me the yard eats up a lot of running spaces. I have limited my current bench to 12 engines and 140 cars, rest are stored under the bench, bedroom, work and few at friends layouts. If you like building trains then you need the room. In the Armstrong book he speaks of Hump Yards, if I build one it will be that kind.

As far as industries, coal mind is all most a must, then a power station to burn the coal. Need something to use the power. Grain Elevator is a good starting point, besides I love coved hoppers. To use the grains, a brewery ( I like beer and beer cars) and a bakery would work well. Both bakery and brewery will need a warehouse for the disturber. Then you need a town to use the brew and bread.

One thing I am doing is buliding the town of Kingsdown on a bluff for something driffrent. It will be modeled after the town of Alton IL. Few PIC.

Good luck on your quest, it stopped rainning so back to the yard work.

&n