I apologize for bringing up this much discussed topic again, but I wanted to consider the question in a slightly different context.
Only 3 things are important to me - in this order: realistic appearance (no nail heads), a reliable bonding, minimum sound transmission. I don’t care about reusing track (my plan is perfect [:)]).
I’m using 3/4" ply as the subroadbed and homasote roadbed from Cascade. Given these criteria, how would you hold it all together?
Alex brand Latex caulk, which comes in different colors to match what you’re fastening.
For instance, we use black to fasten Woodland Scenics foam roadbed and gray to fasten flex track, because gray closely matches the color of the ballast we use.
I have come to use a 23gauge pin nailer to attach flex track and switches. I shoot the pin right through the ties, and since there is no head to see, you can shoot as often as neccessary.
It works well with new track as far as not breaking or splitting ties, but I don’t know how it would work with more brittle plastic. I also wouldnt use it over foam. I had a section of layout that changes from plywood to foam. I wasn’t paying attention and was going to town nailing the track down when suddenly the track wouldn’t stay put. I checked to see if I was out of nails…nope. Found a tie that I had nailed and found the spot where the pin was, yep, there is a little spot (hole), okay, now I’m getting somewhere. Got the xacto out and was trying to hear the “click” of metal…nope. Look under the layout for protruding pins…yep, right to where the foam kicked in. Look at the hardwood floor under the layout…oops, there sits half a dozen pins sticking in the floor. I’m glad my foot wasn’t under the layout.[:$]
Here is what you can do to deal with the nail heads that uses nails but eliminates the nail heads. I use Atlas track nails to nail my track down when I’m laying track. I do this because I frequently need to relay track or adjust it while in the track laying phase. However, later, after i am satisfied with the track and it is ballasted and held in place with ballast adhesive, I can pull out the nails so the nail heads are no longer an issue, no longer visible ;-).
I thought the primary advantage of the caulk was that it was easy to remove if required?
I considered that option, but I think that either the holes, or the damage whatever tool I used to remove the nail would do to the paint on the ties would bother me. One of my main interests is closeup photography.
To allay your fears of damage, the track I am using now I pulled up from a layout I had built over 15 years ago but had not ballasted yet. I simply pulled the nails with a combination of a thin screw driver and needle nose plyers - there was no damage done and I have reused all of the track. No bother at all. As for holes, a tiny dab of putty takes car of that - people paint track to weather it so easily dealt with. I think that should have addressed all of the concerns or rebuttals adequately, unless glue is just what you want to use. I really REALLY like to be able to alter my track without ripping it up or damaging it; IMO, it’s a lot easier to not damage it pulling a tiny Atlas track nail out with needle nose pliers than to pull it up after it’s glued down.
Just as an example, all of the track in the photo below, it is all re-used. All of it was nailed down and pulled up and not damaged.
Like I said in my response, my concern is about damage to the paint, not the track. I have pulled dozens of track nails in the past without damaging the track.
Filling the holes with putty and repainting the ties after the ballast is down sounds like too much work for too little return. Have you actually done this?
Also like I said in my original post, I am not interested in altering the track. This is my last layout. It will not be reused. I’m interested in good looking track and a strong, long lasting bond.
It has been my experience that a root canal is far less painful than removing track bonded to the roadbed with any of the caulks or silastics I’ve seen used. Track was a total loss. However that track bonded first with nails then heavily ballasted with white glue was removed without even token resistance after the ballast is sprayed with wet water. I soak the track in the sink with some detergent to remove stubborn ballast and glue. Clean as a whistle!
Joe
[quote user=“carl425”]
riogrande5761
To allay your fears of damage,
Like I said in my response, my concern is about damage to the paint, not the track. I have pulled dozens of track nails in the past without damaging the track.
Filling the holes with putty and repainting the ties after the ballast is down sounds like too much work for too little return. Have you actually done this?
riogrande5761
I really REALLY like to be able to alter my track without ripping it up or damaging it
Also like I said in my original post, I am not interested in altering the track. This is my last
Are you using tie plates? Joiner bars? Transition bars? Tie anchors? Scale size ballast?
Holes in the ties seems the least of your worries.
To fix that, use any good brand of spikes and spike the rail, not the tie. After ballasting remove them.
Yes, I’ve spiked track by spiking the rail and not the ties. It holds in homasote just fine.
I’d rather have a vasectomy without anaesthetic than glue my track down again.
I use a combination of the Atlas track nails, and Micro Engineerings spikes (medium and small) to fasten my track down in HO (code 100, 83 and 70). The Atlas track nailes are a little thicker but shorter than a pin you would find in a dress shirt when bought in a store. They aren’t hard to pull out with needle nose pliers but hold track firmly in place. If I’ve nailed a straight piece on a center line, but site down it with my eye and it’s not dead-on straight, I can tweak it by pushing it a little one way or the other to get it straight, and the nails will give a little one way or the other, which is nice, but still hold. If you glue the track, it usually won’t give like that. I like having that level of flexibility when laying and adjusting track and having that level of forgiviness. I don’t think you get it with glues or adhesives - but people like what they like.
I’ve given the reasons I like the old school ways. However, the flexiblities of nails and spikes are good to have in the ealier stages and once your happy, then it of course makes sense to make things more permanent. When you add the ballast and glue it in place, then at that stage, adhesives make a lot more sense.
I believe there is a difference between including every conceivable detail to improve the appearance of the track vs avoiding something that will degrade the appearance.
In my experience with nails, the lack of straightness that you’re adjusting is often caused by the nails in the first place. It is very difficult to drive one of those skinny little nails perfectly straight. They will as often as not force the track one way or the other. I have fixed this in the past by using a nail set to push the head of the nail in the direction required. (kinda reminds me of the old track gangs aligning track - if only I knew the words to their song)
Curves are another spot where nails can create problems for flextrack. It is very common for the curve radius to tighten at the nail and loosen a little between the nails. It’s like the track is stretched between the nails.
It is my opinion that the extra care required to avoid the problems induced by nails and to fix the ones that you didn’t avoid is no less than the care required to glue it down correctly in the first place.
Atlas flextrack has the holes in the ties only partially drilled up from the bottom. I’m sure it was a non-trivial expense for them to do this. This implies to me that they accept nails or not as a choice. I have used nails on 4 previous layouts. I choose not to use them this time.
I am still interested in the most effective nail-free method of holding everything down (including the roadbed to subroadbed).
I do the nail set - it’s handy tool. But the thing about glue is it sets and you can’t adjust it after it sets, with the nails I can give the track a firm nudge one way or the other and it’s very easy to adjust. You have to get it right first time - I’m just not able to do that - not that good - who is? I guess a few are.
I tend to be able to drive the nails just where I want them so thats not a problem for me - regardless of how I lay track I find I usually have to do a little minor tweaking with line of sight to get it exactly straight. The reason being is I lay track from above, not looking down from the end - I simply can’t lay it that way physically - I don’t think anyone can.
Right, and again, if you give them a little nudge from the outside, you can unstretch them to remove that. Not a problem.
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It is my opinion that the extra care required to avoid the problems induced by nails and to fix the ones that you didn’t avoid is no less than the care required to glue it
I’ve been using Dap water-based Contact Cement with good luck between 3/4" plywood and cork. It should work well with any porous materials. I haven’t used any of the commercial homabed materials. Some of the homasote I’ve seen in raw form has somewhat uneven surfaces (not just textured) on one side and that could be an issue with bonding using contact cement.
For track to roadbed. I use E-6000 when I don’t want to spike my track (I use Walthers/Shonhara spikes to hold ME track mostly) and in places where I can’t reach to spike like with hidden track. There I often just run an intermittent bead down the middile of the ties and it self-levels and bonds, but doesn’t look anything but utilitarian. You could spread it on the back of the ties, though and it should work great and give no appeartance issues. I do this when using it for visible track. It takes 24 hours to set up, during with you pin things in place. It’s held pretty well at that point, but takes about a week to cure. Plenty of working time in any case. E-6000 gives a really tenacious, flexible bond, so don’t glue anything you want to come apart later easily.
Funny you should mention the contact cement. I brought home a can from Home Depot on Saturday since this is what I used to put down the cork on my last layout. I went looking for the wallpaper seam roller I used to set it last time and couldn’t find it so I read the instructions on the can. They say it requires 25 psi to bond the pieces together so I started wondering if my 2" wide 3/4" plywood roadbed could handle it. You know what happens when you start thinking too much. That’s when I posted the start of this thread.
Steve at Cascade Rail Supply tells me that he uses white or yellow glue to put down his roadbed. Since he’s “the horse’s mouth” for this product, I’m going to do the same.
It also seems that caulk is the most popular choice for the roadbed to track. Alan on his LK&O blog had some good things to say about the strength of the bond and one of the nail advocates above complained about it being too sticky. It looks I’ll be going with caulk as well.
BTW, I had never heard of E6000 so I did a little research. That sounds like some seriously sticky stuff.
My subroadbed is foam covered with plaster cloth and my roadbed is WS foam, but I used plain old caulk and was happy with it. You can get by using a very small amount. I used Atlas flex track and on the 18" curves the track really wanted to straighten out. I still used a relatively small amount of caulk and just used foam nails to hold the track in place while the caulk dried. The track can be popped free if necessary since such a small amount of caulk was used.
I use Liquid Nails LNP-903 (Heavy Duty Construction adhesive). Im using 3/8" A/C plywood, cork roadbed and code 100 flex track. Some areas have woodland scenics foam risers/inclines and 2" blue foam sheets (cheaper than WS profile boards). I have not noticed much if any noise transmission to the benchwork.
I have a roller about 4" wide I use to bond things once set. I’m a big guy, but my upper body strength is somewhat compromised due to a couple of bad shoulders and a flaky back. No gauges involved, but I rather doubt that I’m putting down 25 psi. Things always stay stuck. In places where I’ve taken it up, the water-based contact cement hasn’t been quite as tenacious as the solvent-based stuff I used before, but this actually seems a plus as it does come up with the blade of a stiff scraper or putty kinfe while leaving minimal cleanup from still stuck stuff.
Yeah, E-6000 is my go-to stuff when I need a pretty permanent but flexible bond. I’ve never had a failure to hold on the track I’ve used it on. If you use just the minimum to hold, it can be loosened with the stiff putty blade, but anymore than that and it tends to be difficult to loosen without trashing the track it’s holding. When I wipe it on the bottom of the ties so I get good coverage, it really holds. A little goes a long way. I get it in a small tube, but it may be available in larger ones or a caulk-tube type package if you need large quantities.