Ok guys this is my first layout that I am going to build. I have posted a pic below of the room, I will also post pictures of the room as well. My question is how can I best utilize this space. I model in HO scale, this will be a modern day layout of older decennision. That means my railroad has bought older equipment or is leasing some newer equipement to get things done. The roster will include Alco rs-1,rs-2,rs-3, c-628, c6-30, alco swithchers, gp-9. gp-18, a berkshire, a 4-6-2 light mountain and a heisler, oh and a gp-40, and a f-7. Bascially the steam engines will be for excursion trips through the county side(and my wife likes the steam engines).
For right now the workshop and the other side of the steps is off llimits, though in the future I may want to expand into the workshop and possible the media area on the other side of the steps. I would like a engine service and shop area along the right side of the wall south of the right side door. In that upper corner I am thinking a town of some sort, then down the left side wall hilly or mountainous scenery with maybe a coal mine to supply the power station in town.
The drive in window you will see is on the left wall and would like to use this under the stair space for something as well as this might be the point where the rr will enter the media room on the other side of the stairs. I am not against a helix to go up or down on either side. But I am not sure there is space for it. I have lots of ideas and have cruised through many layout and scenery books for the last 2 years waiting to get our move over with so I can start building. Any suggestion or rough drafts of something would be a great help.
What KIND of railroading do you want to model? That will drive facilities and, to a lesser extent, track layout.
What MINIMUM RADIUS do you want to use?
What are your ‘givens’ (room size and layout being only one of several) and ‘druthers’ (things you absolutely, positively want to include or avoid?)
For rather more on 2 and 3 above, read John Armstrong’s Track Planning for Realistic Operation. Note that this is not a treatise on modeling a specific prototype (John’s own railroad was freelanced.) Rather it explains how to design a model railroad that can be operated like a railroad.
Once you’ve absorbed the concept, re-draw your space in Armstrong Squares and do a lot of controlled doodling. Using the squares will keep you from trying to cram too much into the available space and ending up with something that can’t be built.
It is a good space but it has some design considerations that need to be figured out before slinging track. The door locations are nightmares for an around the walls layout. They either need openings or duckunders or liftout sections. There is no question that to get into the room you have to use the one at the stairs so that is the one I would least like to block. Can the workshop door be relocated? That would give a continuous run around the room except for the entrance. 9’ width is about what I get from your drawing so two sections 30" deep = five foot of railroad and a four foot aisle. That is about the best you can hope for should be good clearance except for when the wide bodies come to visit. How much railroad do you want? You have sufficient space to take a smaller plan and broaden it out with bigger turnouts, longer sidings, bigger buildings, etc. In other words more realistically. The tendency is to say I can now throw in 345 turnouts and fourteen tracks and it is very difficult to maintain that amount of railroad. A nine foot width can allow up to 48" radius curves at the ends which are capable of running anything you want to throw at it in HO. You might consider a rising railroad starting just inside the entry door going clockwise around the room and have a 180 degree curve in the end by that door once you get all the way around the room. Then the railroad could come back on itself on a second level and end above where it started. You need to make a list of things you absolutely want and would like to have. Industries the same and equipment. Do you prefer watching them run or operating like the real thing, etc. Once you have all those answers you can start to put lines on a paper. Absoultely the worst thing you can do is start laying track with no plan.
How much big stuff and traffic is going to and from your workshop? You really do not want a lot of either going through your layout frequently. Layouts (the stuff on them) are fragile and easily damaged.
To allow reasonable passage to and from the workshop without a lot of hassle would mean that you might consider limiting the layout to the West wall (based upon drawing). This could be a dogbone style layout. The right wall would be a wide and free passage.
Unless there is a reason for the workshop to be where it is (plumbing, mechanical) you might actually consider moving the workshop to the layout room and using the room you are calling a workshop for the layout. That appears to be about a 20 x 8 foot room and you could do a nice arount the walls there with only one doorway and limited access. The door also swings the correct way for a layout in the workshop.
The larger room could be workshop/storage and RR lounge. Limiting access to the smaller room keeps the layout clean and minimizes potential damage to the finished product.
Ok first off is i have the book by john armstrong. Very good I might add. Problem is I am a dummy when it comes to putting things on paper. I would like a little bit of both worlds in regards to switching and running trains. I like to see them go around the room and it is easy for my wife to understand but I also want to switch some industries. Industries would be coal mine to feed the power plant, a grain silo to feed the brewery, a box plant for the brewery, some local industry light food goods or something. Farms feeding silos would be somewhere off layout in a more flat area of the earth, but the brewery would be a mountain type brew to get the fresh spring water for the liquid.
I have anticipated the duck under issue and have asked for plans on a swing type track to get to the shop are(which the door can’t be relocated unless I dig under the garage floor). A dog bone style is probably what is going to be the plan, with one end of the bone above or bellow the engine yard.
If you want something more than just running your trains back and forth in a switching layout, you need curves. Tight curves take some of the joy out of layouts, although sometimes it’s that or no layout. If you don’t want a back and forth, and want fairly substantial curves, you have two practical choices, neither ideal. First is to have a layout like mine that sits on high legs and which is operated in a central pit…means duck-under. Many, if not most, modellers will hate a duckunder. But, wow, does it give you a lot of sweeping curves. Otherwise, the only other choice is around the walls, probably with a peninsular turning facility at each end…a dog bone in an L-shape or something else.
You have to list the essentials for you to be pleased about your creation, as Chuck has said. For sure, they have to be in place. How, though? That is the crux of your current position. How will you generate a useful and realistic track plan in the confines you have that will be interesting and easily maintained over time? Once you figure out how much space you have with the necessary access to do construction first and then maintenance, the curves and grades, if any, will be limited to physical size and shape.
For me, I wasn’t going to get most of the basement, and what there is of our basement is not really ideal for a grand railfanning type of layout. All I could get was what my first layout sat in in the way of a footprint, which was a corner (after we relocated the hot water tank that had been there). If I wanted larger turns and longer runs for railfanning, I simply had no practical choice…I am young and short and in good physical condition…so a duckunder it was for me. Two years after construction, no regrets, and my wife and I can get back and forth beside the thing since I left a 4’ "hallway beside it.
You can afford a few evenings with a copied template of two or three profiles of the s
Well the workshop is going to stay where it is at, 1 all my junk and tools are already situated there plus there is a floor to ceiling shelf in there. As the basement is finished and there is really nothing to build other than the layout I am really not too worried about getting stuff in or out of there. Any construction will be on the outside so the saws will go out there with it while it gets built.
My question is now how do I draw said plans. These little one foot blocks are small and i think it would be hard to draw stuff in. Also 3 foot sections are easy to draw right but how do you draw the 9" ones accurately?
Now you need large sheets of graph paper and a compass for drawing arcs and circles. Pick a handy scale, say four 1/4" squares on the graph paper will equal 1’ in HO and on the layout. Mark your room to scale, mark out some possibilities for a bench configuration to scale in that scale room drawing, and then begin to doodle. On thing that helps is to figure out your bottom dollar, drop dead, curve radius and open your compass to represent that radius. Draw a half circle someplace on your scale bench and see what it involves in the way of space.
An interesting space. Its always hard to get an idea of the spacial relationships in a room, so I’m looking forward to seeing it in person. I would start by drawing up a list of want you want in a layout - geographic area, min radius, type of railroading (Class I, branchline, beltline etc), design style (point to point, point to loop, etc), what about duckunders or liftgates, staging yards, classification yards, towns or industries you want to model.
Since you have the Anderson book, you might want to consider using Anderson Squares as a starting point. Sketch things in general; don’t worry specifics and exact locations of track or turnouts, just get a general idea of what might fit and the flow of the track. Once you have a general diagram, then it can be tightened up. IMO, that’s where a good cad design software comes in. You can then make certain your min radius works, that industries will fit, aisle widths are sufficient and more.
You’ll have to come over so I can show you the software I’ve got and how it works.
Thanks Jerry and everyone else that is helping me along here. Ok lets say for instance I can use 24" radius curves. How would I translate that radius to a compass. I have all that fun stuff from my drafting classes in college(why I needed drafting to be a pilot I am still trying to figure out). Lets also use the 1/4 blocks by 4 blocks = 1 foot. How do I translate the lenght and or radius to this scale. Am I clear on this discription or am I confusing everyone? Is this explained in the armstrong book and I have forgotten it or do I ask a valid question? I have some Bachman track radius that I will lay out today in 22" and 18" I think and see what my largest loco will negotiate nicely.
The door to the workshop is going to get remounted to swing into the workshop or totally rebuilt to be a slide op
First pic is of the 22 in curve the second is of the 18 inch curve. Though not right for the obs car the 22 curve seems to be the best. I ran my 2-8-4 berk and my alco c-630 as they were my longest engines and they looked ok. 22 rad is the absolute biggest i can have, with the 18 and 22 side by side there was tight room for 2 people back to back.
My plan is to run no longer than a 10 car train using grain cars as my basis for length. Everything except my rs-2 and alco swithcher can pull that many cars. Even my heisler will pull all those cars and then some(didn’t have any more readly unpacked) very inpressed with that little engine. My alco switcher will do 5 before slippage and the rs-2 well will barley pull a dummy rs-2(light) by itself. Needs traction tires i guess because it is as heavy as the switcher but the weight is in the center not over the drive wheels. My bachman 60 ton swithcer was impressive with 9 before slippage.
Well after a day in the basement fiddleing with track(sectional) I have come to the thought that my railroad empire might only be a railroad nothing. That is where my brain can’t comprehend the space and where and what to do with it. I am sure some of you look at this space and say here is what will work great.
I will post some scribblings tomorrow or later this week with what I see in my head but can not entirely grasp.
Just to confuse you here’s a different opinion. Don’t use 1/2" = 1 foot scale. Use 3/4" = 1 foot for your scale drawings. Why? Because the math is easier. Using 3/4" scale means the 1/16" = 1 inch; 12 scale inches = 12/16 or 3/4". Get some graph paper with a 1/4" grid. Every three squares is 1 foot.
Sketch out the perimeter of the room and mark any obstructions, windows and doors. Now that room dimensions are established and your grid is in place start to free hand sketch some layout ideas. You can use a compass to sketch some curves in. At this point you’re just trying to see if certain concepts and ideas fit and leave enough aisle space. I would forget about being exactly to scale at this point, just see if things fit in general.
My advice is to consider 24" radii as a minimum, larger if you can get away with it, especially in visible areas.
IMO, the Anderson book is somewhat out of date. To me his designs have always been spaghetti bowl oriented track layouts. Layout design philosophy has changed over the years to a more linear concept a la David Barrow. You have a long, narrow rooom that seems fit for a linear design.
I use 3rdPlanIt and like it very much. People talk about the learning curve associated with it and that its a difficult program to use and understand. It really isn’t that difficult if you understand the idea 3 coordinate plane geometry and use a little math. Knowing this you can put anything anywhere in the layout room. I’d use it after you decided on the general conceptual design of the layout. Once the basic idea is formed, use it to flesh out the details and to make certain everything fits in greater detail.
The author’s name is John Armstrong, not Anderson. Many of his designs are quite linear … that concept was not invented by David Barrow. Sometimes people don’t consider a design “linear” if the benchwork curves. But “linear” in the model railroad layout design sense usually relates to the track passing through a scene only once.
Consider Armstrong’s linear designs for the SP Shasta Route (Model Railroader, April 2005), Sierra RR (MR, May 2004), and ATSF Alma District (MR, August 2006), among many others.
The benchwork curves quite a bit in these designs, but the overall impression is of realistic scenes, with the railroad generally passing through each scene only once.
Armstrong’s Track Planning for Realistic Operation is not exclusively or even mostly about specific designs, “spaghetti bowl” or linear. Rather, the concepts described there can be applied to many different styles of layouts.
I’ve done more than a hundred different designs in 3rd PlanIt and never once used “3-coordinate plane geometry” or math. The 3rd PlanIt user interface is not at all intuitive and has a learning curve, but I don’t think it’s accurate to describe it like an upper-division math course.
It is simple 3 cordinate plane geometry. High school level at most. The interface shows the X,Y, and Z coordinates for any object drawn. Moving an object is as simple as change any one of those coordinates. For example, if you have a 10 foot long section of track and you what it to be 3" higher at one end all you need to do is change the Z coordinate at the end point by 3". Not difficult, not high level math, just a matter of thinking spatially inside the box, in this case.
Your correct, its Armstrong, not Anderson. Most of his designs that he features in the early editionsof his book are more spaghetti bowl than linear. I never said David Barrow invented linear design layouts, he was simply used as an example of a purveyor of linear designs with his domino method.
What I’m saying is that you don’t need any of that to do plans in 3rd PlanIt. There are simpler ways within the program to set grades, even over fairly complex trackwork, than what you are describing.
