Got the space, theme & items BUT need layout suggestions.

Model Railroader Layouts and layout building
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Hello to all my fellow model railroad hobby fans,

The time has finally come! After so many years of just buying and expanding my RR collection, I can finally look forward to start building my first benchwork project. However, since there are many options available and various things to consider I wanted to share my initial thoughts with you and open up for suggestions…

Here are the details:

Layout space available: 15’ L X 4’ W & 11’ L X 3’ W - theme; PRR 1970 to early 80’s - Aggregate Industry & Warehouses

The layout will be constructed in my garage along the wall perimeter. My initial benchwork plans are to build a “L” shape shelf layout. The total space in the garage is approx. 19’ W X 18’ L but I will utilize the other space for a pool table and storage cabinets. Because of this, I thought that the shelf design would be best for this situation. Do you agree?

In addition, I know that prior to building the benchwork I’ll need to complete lighting, floor and wall plans if I intend to make any modifications but am I missing any thing else?

Inventory of structures:

Valley Cement Plant, Medusa Cement Company, Glacier Gravel, Co-Op Storage Shed, Open-Air Transload, Northern Light & Power, NL&P Substation, Overhead Traveling Crane, Transmission Tower, Parkview Terrace, Centennial Mills, Commisary Freight Transfer Bldg, Imperial Foods Background Bldg, Hardwood Furniture Co., George Roberts Printing Company, 431 Storm Lake Mobil Gas Station, Delaney Iron Works, Easton Mill, Fisherman’s Cove, Freeman Manufacturing Company

These are a few structures that I intend to use on my layout. The reason why I noted them above is to ask for your suggestion of the layout design for the structures in a realistic matter. For example, I intend to utilize Valley Ceme

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Assuming layout sizing for HO Scale…

On the floor and on cardboard: Start with a dogbone reverse loop on each end of each “L” and see how your rolling stock and locomotives fare with those preliminary radius for each dogbone with continuous running. You need to start somewhere just to get some perspective by eyesight since you don’t yet have a layout trackplan.

You may want to adjust the layout for point-to-point operations, or increase the radius for dogbone loops, or increase the mainline from a 1-track to 2-tracks, etc. Place the structures beside where the tracks will go for some idea of enough space for your layout and locations of spurs and towns. Don’t be adverse to adjusting your “L-dimensions” to do what it takes since you do have the space.

Remember, railroads are transportation systems going from Point A to Point B with side-spurs to industry structures and towns and staging yards. All of these factors influence room prep and lighting choices (consider flourescent and/or track lighting) that will reduce any unintended shadows onto the layout (or from your layout structures).

Review other forum threads for what others are considering for layout design. You really need to pin down what operations you want to accomplish with trackage, prototype inspiration, circa (what time period), railroad name, using DC or DCC power, diesel and/or steam, etc.

Check out the Special Issues at the Kalmbach Store – For example, I don’t miss any of the

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  1. You may very well already have an idea about the era/time period, type of place and type or railroading you want to be able to simulate on your layout, but you have not actually told us what your era, location and theme is.

What you have told us is which building kits you have bought - which may or may not fit together in the same kind of real looking place at the same period of history - some old stone buildings, large brick buildings, small wooden storehouses, some east coast type of structures, some midwestern type of structures, some small town structures, some urban structures and so on and so forth.

If you were to describe the kind of place and time period you are modeling, and what kind of railroading you want to model, what would it be ?

Edit: actually the OP did say - I somehow managed to miss this part:

  1. Since you have already bought quite a few buildings, you have most likely decided on a modeling scale, possibly without much consideration for what kind of curves you could have fitted into your available layout space, what kind of train lengths you want to run and such things.

What did you pick - H0 scale or N scale?

  1. You are seemingly considering to put a 3 or 4 foot deep table up against a wall.

Not necessarily a great idea - your arms won’t be long enough to reach across a 4 foot wide table from one side (4 foot wide is a table, not a shelf). Especially when there are buildings, land

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PRR 1970-1980 was actually PC. Also, your widths should be considerably narrower if you are building against the walls. Recommended maximum reach-in is in the 24-30 inch range. Beyond that, you start needing access hatches and such. (My almost-freestanding peninsulas are up to 5 feet wide, but accessible from all sides. My wall shelves range from 15 inches to 32 inches - and the back of the 32 inch width is accessible if I roll up the garage door.)

You mentioned needing space for storage cabinets. I have some, on wheels, that roll under the layout when not in use. At least one other forumite used old kitchen cabinets (acquired at a friend’s remodeling site) as bases for his layout. (I also have overhead storage shelves above the layout shelves along the solidly-framed sidewalls. Both my wife and I need a ladder to access them.) There’s a lot of cubic under the benchwork - even mine, which is ‘C-acts-like-L’ girder and quite deep from track to bottom. Might as well put it to good use.

Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - in a Las Vegas garage)

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Thanks for your time & input. My theme is PRR, time frame is 1970 to early 80’s. I have invested about $3K so far over the last 10 years on this hobby but have never had the space or time to build anything so I’m new to building and planning aspect. I have many questions as far as operations but would first like to address my benchwork goals and then I’ll plan for the track layout issues and so on. Since my knowledge and experience is limited I will be running 1 main track (large loop) with several lines serving as yard for freight in and outs. I will be using diesel PRR engines and I would like to create a industry model with the concrete models being the center point of the structures.

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I have the feeling that you maybe doing things the wrong way around. First comes your track plan idea, then the benchwork to suit your needs. There is a risk of limiting yourself pretty much, if you do the benchwork first.

I suggest you do a lot of reading - there is a wealth of information available in the web. In addition, our host offers a lot of reading material for the beginner, just check the " Our Store" section here. You already have spend a lot of $$$ on acquiring material for your layout and you will be spending even more on it, not only in $-terms. If you want to avoid costly mistakes and turn the craze for trains into a rewarding hobby, there is no way around getting knowledgeable.

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Let me start by saying I am sorry I went into lecturing mode in my first reply. You had actually mentioned you era, location and theme - big aggregate industry, PRR, 1970s-1980s.

We will assume that Pennsylvania Railroad did not merge with the New York Central into the Penn Central in 1968 (let alone went into bankruptcy in 1970, with the viable remnants being picked up by Conrail in 1976), but instead continued as a separate company into the early 1980s. As modeler’s license goes, that’s a fairly small change to history. So - PRR in the mid-1970s it is.

Perhaps somewhere in the Mid-Atlantic states? No passenger traffic - just freight. Layout will be based around industry switching in one or more industrial areas, of which at least one area feature a largish aggregate type industry.

Are you envisioning PRR engines coming to your industrial area from somewhere else (hidden staging) with loaded cars, dropping them off in an industry support yard, picking up empties from the same yard and departing again (back to hidden staging), before a local switcher will start moving the cars from the yard into the various industries?

Or are you envisioning just starting out with cars “having been dropped off on the yard/interchange track by an earlier train” and just go out to the industries, pick up cars that has been emptied or filled at the industries, set out new inbound cars for the industries at appropriate locations, and then take the cars the industries are done with back to the yard (“to be picked up by a later train”) ?

Or is part of your vision seeing long(ish) trains pass through your industrial area on your mainline, on their way from one place to another place ?

Or in other words - do you need continuous run to support your goal, and what will your staging needs be? </

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The structure inventory reveals that he’s using HO scale, since Walthers can’t be bothered to bring out many of these items in N scale.

Lee

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Or you could chuck the plan and just model the changes… [:-^] [(-D]

John

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Hi,

Operating reliability through standards is chapter 5 in John Armstrongs Track Planning for Realistic Operation. One of the standards is the ratio between the length of your longest car and the minimum radius you can use. Consider a 1:2.5 ratio as the lowest you want to use, most people go for a 1:3 ratio. In the era you like 70 feet cars were used; they require a 24" radius in HO at least. Which means your pike has to be 5 feet wide for a continious loop.

Don’t respect these standards and, after spending an other 2 grand and tons of sweat and time on track and switches and more nice stuff, you could find out you created a derailment paradise. As some other member on this forum said: " it was not written on the boxes"; he signed: a bitter ex-HO-er.

So 4 feet is too wide for good access, not wide enough for a good loop.

This is how my sons addressed the reach-in versus loop problem. But the minimum radius is 18* and we are running mostly 40 and a few 50 feeters.

The prize to be paid is a drop-in and due to the width of just 4 feet a pretty narrow aisle and narrow shelves as well.

Paul

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That’s a pity. Largish industries is a good fit for N scale.

Original Poster might want to pick up a copy of “Industries you can model, vol 3” - it has a chapter on modeling Cement Plants on a layout. Can be picked up e.g. here: http://www.kalmbachstore.com/12422.html

Walthers has a page on setting up their Valley Cement Plant and traffic for it on page 14 in this flyer: http://www.walthers.com/page/wkw_upd33.pdf

Smile,
Stein

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Excellent feed back! It’s all appreciated, please keep them coming!

Sorry about the lack of information on my initial post but there are so many things to note that I can’t seem to include it all within one post so if you all don’t mind I’ll continue to provide answers as we go. (1) All of my RR inventory items are in HO scale. (2) I know that proper planning will prevent costly problems & thats why I’m gathering info know that I’m ready to start my first ever benchwork project. (3) I must say that I do love this hobby & I have been collecting many items for about 10 years plus. About 3 years ago, I noticed that I was just buying structures and items that really didn’t relate to each other; in other words, if I liked it, I bought it. Big mistake, I know. But ever since then I created an inventory of all items and started to piece together a want list to complete industry structures for my vision of a concrete/warehouse complex in PRR theme. (4) I know that track planning can get pretty complicated and detailed but I’ll be honest & say that I don’t know much about creating such a layout nor do I think I will have to in order to achieve my goal. I intend to build a large main line which will allow my loco and freight to travel non-stop around the layout with of course a few yards with about 6 to 8 lines in them to represent INs & Outs to various warehouses & cement plant. (5) After completing the benchwork in the area available to me (which is bigger then I ever hoped for) I will plan and create my track layout & see how it runs. Then I’ll adjust the tracks if needed to make my structures fit into the design. I can’t really add any more space or take any more space in the garage so basically I have to work with what I have & use the structures that will fit in. The rest of them that do not fit will be built & weathered then eighter placed on a shelf for display or sold on ebay.

The advise received and your time t

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Jack, kidding aside, if you’re having trouble visualizing your trackplan but want to move forward anyway, here’s a suggestion that might help–

– Build the benchwork where you think it can go

– Buy a selection of nickel-silver sectional track, preferably with curves of the approximate radius you think you would like to use (plus an assortment of others for other purposes). Buy some flex track too to join longer sections together

– Buy an assortment of switches (turnouts) of both varieties: Left and Right hand. Probably for what you’re planning, #6 would be best, you could probably get away with #5’s but unless you want to unduly restrict yourself, stay away from #4’s (and don’t step into #2 :slight_smile:

– Buy enough 2-inch pink foam board to cover the top of your benchwork (see your local big box store… hint: think orange).

And then just PLAY with the trains. Put down some track (pin it to the pink foam and just run it for awhile, study the configuration and how you feel about it. And then pull it up and try something else. By using sectional track you’ll be able to do that over and over until you get a sense of what works for you and what doesn’t.

You can also spend some time reading some books about track planning, such as John Armstrong’s “Track Planning For Realistic Operation” (Don’t spend much time trying to get it signed by the author as he’s currently busy designing layouts along the ethereal plane…)

I have found that you CAN pin track to pink foam very easily and securely if you use TWO pins for each hole. Angle each pin into the hole and opposite from each other so that they cross when you push them in. Then push them all the way in up to the heads. You can also pin cork roadbed the same way if

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John -

While “just playing” with your track placement - are/were you actually trying to experiment with track laying on L-shaped benches/tables that are 3 and 4 feet deep, placed up against a wall ?

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No, in my own setup, most of my benchwork is 24 inches or less with a couple of segments purposely at 30 inches, and I have some deep corners to do something with. Plus I have a lot more than an ‘L’ to design for.

[quote user=“steinjr”]

Or is your experimentation more along the lines of "not sure of exactly where

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hi,

Yellow = out of reach

Red = needed extra

If you go for rather modern Penn Central equipment.

The space you have according to your OP can be read in many ways; do you mean this?

Paul

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Yes Paul, the top layout design represents my initial goal. I like the added red areas to increase turns & realize the that the yellow areas will limit reach. I however thought that building my benchwork on wheels would remedy those problems (I never mentioned that did I, sorry).

The other layout desing with the opening in the middle is something which I had not considered & really looks interesting as well. The only set back is lost real estate property for all my structures but nontheless, good concept.

Aside from these initial concerns about the benchwork, track plan & so on. I really am having a hard time thinking of placement for my structures. I am seeking a good source of reading material to study the techniques, how to,and scenery on a concrete complex but can’t seem to find any. Could someone please recommend one?

Thanks again to everyone for sharing your valued time & knowledge, its appreciated!

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http://www.kalmbachstore.com/modeltrains-railroading-model-railroading-books.html

If you go to the reference section, there are three books called “The Model Railroader’s Guide to Industries Along The Tracks”. Volume 3 has a chapter on modeling concrete industry on a model railroad.

Direct link to “Industries vol 3”: http://www.kalmbachstore.com/12422.html

Same tip, and another link in a post of mine from January 27th, further up in this thread :slight_smile:

Smile,
Stein

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Hi John,

Lance Mindheim’s East Rail is just 9 x 9 feet. The second footprint, with the operating pit in the middle, is twice as big. But Lance Mindheim builds truncated industries along the back-drop.

You have an pretty design-issue: truncated buildings + great access + good separation of scenes versus whole buildings + reach-in problems + no of separation of scenes. At the prize of a drop-in.

I start with the railroad and truncate my buildings. When I am clear about the mainline I start thinking scenery. Being clear about the mainline is more then just drawing a loop of track. You have to incorporate staging / interchange, decide about a yard and passing sidings. The length and numbers of these tracks depend on the kind of railroad you envision. And all these items relate to the number of trains running at the same time as well. If you want to build a major industry you have to allocate space for it now.

Is it a switching district with one train at a time, as on Lance Mindheim’s East Rail? Are only short transfer-cuts added to the local switch job? Do you like to do some classification as well? (Rip the transfer-cut into pieces on a small yard; some cars go to zone A, some to B and some to an interchange)

My feeling is I have a different way of thinking. I see an operating railroad before my eyes and the industries will get their place along the way. While you seem to start with buildings. Real problem with that approach is that while you can truncate all buildings, you can’t truncate the mainline and most of the spurs.