Finally finished my layout and with you folks help, wiring is done, KW works, two trains run great. Now, I added a “second level” run, the main grade is 5%. It rises 5" in ten feet. I know thats kind of steep, but anyway here’s my question/problem. The usual run-around engine is a Linoel Nascar GP-38 w/ trainsounds, with more than two cars, it won’t climb that grade. I have a Lionel Thomas-tank-engine, that crazy thing will climb the grade w/ ten cars w/ loads. My 1950’s FM Virginian, will climb towing over 20 cars at an unbelievable speed. I know there is no comparing those Pullman Motors to the new Can type.
Could I have a bad motor? Something’s not right, when a little single motor unit (Thomas) can out pull a twin motor???
Can I replace the motors, w/ something more powerful? thoughts and help, appreciated. Stu
There’s nothing wrong with your NASCAR engine…it simply isn’t designed to pull anything up a grade. It’s a plain-Jane no frills loco, intended to pull your 5-7 cars around a level loop of track.
For your grade, in the future you may want engines with speed control, like MTH 2.0.
To elaborate on what Fife posted, the Nascar set was on the No Frills entry level. I believe it only has a single motor and will not pull many cars, especially up a grade. I would not invest in trying to upgrade this particular engine. Instead, your money will be better invested in either more two motor post war engines, like the FMs, or even some of the modern versions. MTH, K-Line, and Lionel have some very good pullers. Many folks here have a good number of different engines with history that can tell you how good one pulls, etc. Fife is also right regarding speed control. This will come into effect when you have a engine coming down the grade, you don’t want to overspeed when taking a corner at the end.MTH has it in some of theirs, as do Lionel, etc. Just have to make sure it is included. Odyssee makes a speed control and you will see it listed on the engine inclusions.
If the wheels are spinning, you might try this. Add some lead weights. I have done this to some older MPC engines and it helped a lot. Remove the shell and stick them anywhere you can.
Dennis there advertised as dual motor engines but I seem to remember something about the first ones not good pullers for some reason if it was a single at first then switched to dual later not sure but there now advertised as dual maintenance free motors in them. Now how strong they are I don’t know I sometimes wonder if they actually have different can motors depending on the engine but they don’t put that out and they only offer one type which might be a middle grade to replace any that go as there all the same size.
2nd thought I have seen 2 different sizes it seems.
But back to original question I don’t doubt it cant do a 5% grade and the tank can that little tank is as squished up so ever thing is right on top of the drive wheels where the Nascar engine even thou its 2 motors its all spread out and compare to your other engine (Virginian )I bet about 1/2 the weight and it has magnatraction also to boot.
The motors in this particular line of product are much smaller and have much less power than the vertical can or Pullmor motors. They just don’t put out the torque needed for pulling up a grade, straight and level no problem.
Your 5" rise in 120" is 4.16% grade. I have 3% grade with an “S” curve towards the top with 48" curves. Thats where an 8 car scale train stalls. The mainline is getting extended into the closet and I hope to get the grade down to about 2% without an “S” curve.
I have the TMCC GP-30 and Legacy GP-30 (both Chessie) and the Legacy GN GP-7 and all three will pull 15+ scale cars from my lower level to upper level (7 inch rise, over 13 feet) all curve without a problem. Put the two GP-30s on the track and they will pull over 40 cars up the same grade…
The only time I have a problem is when I have lighter cars, flatcars, or gondolas in the consist.
For the GP-38 I would check to make sure you have traction tires if there are no traction tires you’re lucky you can pull anything.
For single motor diesel engines you can gain a little more traction going uphill by turning the engine backwards and having the driven truck downhill from the other end of the engine.
I use to pull a grade steeper than that on my old layout. To get the engine to pull, weighted it and then before going up the grade, throttle wide open. Later I lashed three engines together to make it. Weight will help to a point.
IT has traction tires. This isn’t a case of spinning it’s wheels/losing traction. It just plain stalls, STOPS.
And again, a little one motor Thomas Tank Engine, can pull three times the cars up the same grade at 100 miles per hour. Figuratively speaking. This is what I don’t get, and started me wondering if I have a “sick” loco? thanks Stu
Just small weak motors. Thomas may be geared different and or have a better motor. Friend has the same engine as you. He added the expansion and it has a hard time on level track.
You don’t have a “sick loco”, it is just an entry level loco with two small truck mounted can motors that are not capable of pulling much of a load. Add that to a relatively steep grade and you compound the problem.
Stu, while it is entirely possible that Lionel has changed their specs, most of these starter diesels and steamers have nearly identical Mabuchi brand DC motors. The motors are identical to the ones used in similar K-Line starter diesels, save for the number of gear teeth on the main gear attached directly to the motor shaft.
As Chief said, adding some weight (self-sticking lead automobile tire balancing weights work great) will undoubtedly help. Try to make sure placement of the weights is balanced where ever there is room on the frame. I run lots of this sort of diesel: my K-Line S-2’s can pull a very lengthy train as do my other K-Line diesels. But I also add some weight to them. I will also say there could easily be some inconsistency between these Mabuchi motors, as I have some K-Line locos that need little or no extra weight to be good pullers and others that do need the weight.
If you turn the loco upside down, using some feeder wires to the pickups and the wheels or a ground point, you may actually be able to see if one motor is running slower than the other. I’ve had this happen and I will swap out trucks from one loco to another to get the dual motors matched up better.
A couple of more hints here…
Make sure the traction tires are adhered well. If the traction tires are slipping, they don’t help. I use Scotch 3M Carpet Tape to attach traction tires. Others here use some sort of glue: do a search on traction tires here on this forum and you should be able to find it.
The other trick which well help is to remove the loco shell, and then the C-clips holding the trucks. You’ll see a metal guide pin with a slight bend that slips into a curved hole in the loco frame. I insert a spring over this guide pin, so the spring is between the top of the truck and the bottom of the loco frame. I pulled a load of springs from several old computer keyboards which work great fo
+3 on the weight… if both motors are working, it should help. I have a couple dual motor RS-3s that are notoriously lightweight. Adding 5-6 oz of lead brought them up to approximately equal to a postwar geep.
Adding weight won’t help if, as he says, the wheels aren’t slipping. In fact, the extra weight will be just that much extra load for the locomotive to pull up the hill.
With permanent-magnet “can” motors, it is important that the wheels turn at the same speed on the two trucks. I would follow the advice above to check that. If they are different, with no apparent mechanical reason, you could try rewiring them in series instead of parallel. This will require that you give the locomotive more voltage for the same speed; so your transformer must have enough voltage range to get the highest speed that you will want. If that is not a problem for you, having the motors in series eliminates any disadvantage from their fighting each other by wanting to run at different speeds.
One thing to be cautious of when adding weight to engines with low grade can motors and plastic gears is overheating the motors and/or stripping the gears. Cheapo electronic reverse units are prone to burn out too. Not to say adding weight is a bad idea. I would monitor heat using feely meely methods. The Nascar diesel could be lighter than usual too.
Running light free rolling cars with plastic trucks is probably the best way to go if you aren’t already**. Then you’re not overstressing what was engineered.**
ADD MORE WEIGHT, Just kidding Bob, I too noticed that he said it wasn’t slipping. I think that Brianel, might be on the right TRACK[:)], I would check the wires for enough slack. Assuming it has traction tires, if a wire gets pulled, and creates an OPEN, the other motor will likely not have enough power to pull the train, and drag the non-operating truck. An OPEN, also wouldn’t show as a SHORT either, and might be a lot harder to detect.