I’m considering buying a GP-9 in the SP “black widow” paint scheme, but the model has a number that is in the series that was allocated to locos supplied to the Texas & New Orleans circa 1955.
Can anyone tell me whether these locos stayed in their own “territory”, or did they
stray off the T&NO and on to the parent SP system occasionally or regularly?
Cheers,
Ed Dyball,
P.S. Apologies tendered to those who have seen this on the “Railroads” forum, but since it has been a while since I “posted”, I initially chose the wrong one to post on!. In addition, I managed to confuse myself (and others) by making an error while transcribing the data from J.B. Garmany’s book, “Southern Pacific Dieselisation”.
In all probability, if it’s lettered for SP and not in the number group for the Pacific lines, then it’s probably one that was built for T&NO rather than Cotton Belt. Cotton Belt locos, while painted in Black Widow, had some paint details that were different from their SP (including T&NO) counterparts and were always lettered for the Cotton Belt.
As for Cotton Belt engines appearing on the SP, that was quite common.
The freight units in the 400 series worked on home rails throughout the late fifties, operating on lease upon occasion for both the Pacific lines and the Cotton Belt, but it was the liquidation of the T&NO as a coporation in 1961 that scattered these units nationwide. These units were renumbered in the 3400 series in the 1965 renumbering scheme.
In 1960 and 1961, several of the 280 series passenger versions were transferred to the Pacific Lines and given 4-digit numbers.
Source for above: Joseph A. Strapaci’s volume 7 of Southern Pacific Historic Diesels.
So, if the locomotive has three numbers, you are talking about a pre-mid-1965 period. From the above, it sounds like some 3-digit T&NO locomotives seldom rode on the Pacific Lines without being renumbered, although when it did happen it appears to have occurred primarily between 1961 (dissolution of T&NO) and 1965 (prior to systemwide renumbering in 1965). On page 61 of Strapac’s volume 6 (T&NO) there is a picture of unit 248 at Colton Towere in southern California on May 27, 1964. On page 80 there is #409 at Watsonville Junction, California on Dec. 25, 1963. On page 81 is a picture of #427 at Mission Bay (San Francisco). On page 82 is a picture of #423 at Watsonville Junction. On page 82 is a picture of #432 and #243 near Redlands, California. On page 84 #444 is pictured in San Luis Obispo, California on Nov. 27 1962 and #443 at Portola, California. On page 85 is #457 pictured at Mission Bay on July 22, 1965.
So, if you’re modeling the 1961-1965 period, you are safe.
Thanks for taking the time and trouble to respond to my post, which, regretably, I initially managed to mangle, but ultimately was able to rectify, on this forum at least. All credit is due to you both for making some sense out of it.
The model that I had been considering purchasing was available with the numbers 412, 416, and 420, the latter an unpowered dummy. Please resist the tempatation to compare me to #420!!! The model had first been introduced about four years ago, and I thought that they were no longer available. However, a major mail-order dealer suddenly re-listed them, so I suspect that someone found a few while stock-taking after the Christmas period.
I intend to model the mid-1950’s, but I have yet to determine the location. The prospect of a locomotive in the “black widow” paint scheme is very tempting, but modellers’ licence cannot be stretched beyond breaking point. Thanks to you gents, I shall exercise some restraint. I feel sure that in due course Atlas O will bring out their F3’s in the SP “black widow” scheme, hopefully in the number series appropriate to the main company, but I may have to wait a while. Even I will bend history and stretch credibility to see that run on my layout.
Thank you Mark, for the precise details that you kindly reproduced above. I don’t have a large library of American railroad books, outlets for them here very few. However, as previously mentioned, I do have Garmany’s “Southern Pacific Dieselisation”, now out-of-print, which I treasure, even though it’s now 22 years old.
And thanks to “AC” too. What an inspired choice for your “handle”. Chapelon was one of the all-time greats. What I want to know is whether yo
You’re welcome. By the way, the St. Louis Southwestern (Cottom Belt) had 12 GP-9s (#820-831) shipped in 1957 and 1959. It did have the single GP-7 (June 1950) on the SP system, however. Originally numbered 320, it was painted in Daylight red and orange, designed as back up passenger power. However, I believe all it ever did was haul freight or switch. It had a steam generator (removed 1960), but no dynamic braking (the Cotton Belt crossed no mountains). It was painted black widow colors around 1958.
Mark: Cotton Belt #320 was initially used on the Shreveport-Lewisville passenger trains. These would be the #201-202 trains. It often swapped duties with #601 the last Cotton Belt Atlantic.This passenger train was gone shortly after the GP7 was delivered so the only GP7 does not get much credit for passenger train usage.