Greetings!
First off, i gotta say im total noob...been researching grades and i seen this pic that bothers me...it from here...[http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/221437.aspx](https://forum.trains.com/t/meadows-lumber-ho-refurbish-renewal/254308/1)...at the top of the pic in the background,the piece of track going from bottom to upper track...isnt that more than a 4% grade?
Would this be for only a specialized loco to use(powerful?)
Looks like it is.
If you look at the original track plan, I suspect it was intended as a one-way return loop. On the other hand, if you read through the article, you’ll see where the owner has a lot of Shay and other geared lokies, which are exactly the specialized locos you’d use on a line like this.
Good eye, and yes, it’s a severe grade. However, even steeper grades were negotiated routinely in the woods and on mine properties over the years. The severe demand meant at the very least only a few loads towed up the grade, but hopefully it was loads going DOWN the grade with empties being towed back up.
Ideally.
There were geared and tank engines in the steam age. They did much better than standard rod engines. My wife and I treated our two very young grandsons to a ride on the Alberni Pacific up to the McLean Steam Sawmill heritage site this August. This would be the third time I have done the excursion lasting about 35 minutes each way. The power is supplied by a 2-8-2T Baldwin with smallish drivers. On the backhead, in the cab, is a metal plaque stating that the water level, indicated in the sight glass, must not fall below a certain mark (indicated on the plaque) when the engine is climbing a grade of 9%. Yes…nine percent.
My bet is that with a grade so steep, even that strong little engine, with all that tractive effort, would have been able to tow at most two smallish logging skeleton cars laden with about 20 tons of logs each.
I think it was the Yosemite rr that had a winch and cable for pulling cars up a very steep grade on the order of 60%. The steepest grade as I recall was thr Madison incline from the Ohio river up to the level of the hills around Evansville Indiana at 5.98%
Steepest grade in Japan was over Usui pass - 6.8% In the 1960s the Abt-system rack rail was removed (and the ED42 class rack locos retired) in favor of some monstrously heavy low-geared Co-Co locos with the heaviest axle loading in the country. Upgrade, 300 tons of locomotive could pull 200 tons of train. Downgrade, there were two humongulocos on the head end of a four car set of lightweight EMU. Without them, the light cars would have become very large toboggans.
On the Roaring Camp and Big Trees tourist railroad (Felton, CA) there is a short stretch of 13% (!) grade bypassing a burned out trestle. Trains traverse that leg at something approximating the speed an average hiker (with walking stick and backpack) could climb it. The locos don’t like it, and everyone in the county can hear the exhaust.
My model shortline, the Tomikawa Tani Tetsudo, 4% ruling grade, assigns teakettle tank locos on a, “Two driver axles per three trailing axles,” basis. A single 0-6-0T gets a maximum of two 4-wheel wagons. Add a third and we doublehead. The two coach miners’/schoolkids consist (runs twice a day) calls for doubleheaded 0-6-0s and an 0-8-0T pusher. Fortunately, most of the loads (coal) run downhill.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
WoW…Thanks for all the great reply`s…very informative…remember i am a complete noob here!
Alot of the terminology being used i dont understand yet, as i know absolutely nothing about real RRs.
Shays, specialized heavily geared machines for mining and logging, 2-0-8-0(i think this is something to do with number of axle`s?) yeah, i got a lot of learning…
Now ive got a 9x15 bedroom at my disposal...i bought AnyRail and have been trying to come up with something....heres what i got so far…i know, not very interesting, but i`m just starting!
Hello
Your setup looks great. And I notice that a lot of scenery is in place in the background of the picture. But in the foreground I see track still being put down. Have you tested or ran any trains yet. Once the scenery is in place, sometimes it’s hard to work on the track if you have to.
I usually don’t start scenery until I know my track work is in perfect order. But hey, that’s me.
Joe C
Hi
“Your setup looks great”
Thanks, but im just trying to throw something together right now with anyrail...i actually dont own any track or trains yet !(unless you count the Gandy Dancer i managed to save from my childhood).
Ill definitely be laying track before the scenery, just trying to see the big picture with scenery that id like to have.
already wishing i had twice as much space, and don`t even own a piece of track yet!
In North America and the UK, steam engines are described by the number of wheels. For example a Pacific passenger engine is a 4-6-2…4 small wheels in front (two on each side), 6 big driving wheels, and 2 small wheels under the firebox/cab.
MR/Kalmbach have an online glossary of terms, going thru that might help you with the terminology…
Interesting track plan, but you will have some major issues with reach into the corners of the room. They look like they’re around 4’. You really don’t want to go much over 30" unless you’re way taller than most of us.
The solution to your reach in problems will likely give you a somewhat wider aisle in the middle. It looks like it’s about 30" when 4’ might be more comfortable in the long run. This is especially so if you plan on more than a single operator, because there’s really no easy way to swap places with each other in an aisle as tight as you’ve drawn.
Finally, consider making the entrance duck-under narrower. That will make it easier to use without removing it first. BTW, you didn’t mention the layout height and that can affect how usable a duck-under will be, with higher being better, unless you’re really short.
Thanks for the reply…been using the glossary, where is this in the glossary?..4-6-2…wheel sets?
Thanks for the reply…“but you will have some major issues with reach into the corners of the room.” i agree, but i have the abliity to cut access panels(and probably will) in the north and west walls(the big corners).
" making the entrance duck-under narrower" thats a good idea…and i was actually hoping to hinge it.
"you didn’t mention the layout height " yeah, i got a million Qs about that , but im outta time right now, thanks again to all.
This is slightly off-topic, but is interesting, so I wanted to share it. I live adjacent to the site of the former Algoma Lumber Company in southern Oregon. In 1915 Algoma built an incline railroad to access a large forested area and feed it’s mill. The incline was 2600 feet long, had a vertical rise of 800 feet, and ascended to the summit with a maximum grade of 57%. A specially-built steam lowering engine powered the operation. The engine was not installed to pull cars up the incline, although it could do that too. Rather, it’s chief function was to act as a steam-powered brake as the loaded cars were let down the mountain by cable. Cars were lowered one at a time, and as each loaded car was let down, it’s weight pulled an empty car to the top, the two cars meeting on a section of double track at the halfway point. A Shay and a saddle tank provided power above the incline into the woods, and a rod engine transferred the cars to and from the mill a couple miles away. The route of the incline is still plainly visible on the mountainside. The mill closed down prior to World War II, and the equipment was sold for scrap to feed the war effort.
Wilton.
fyi, ndbprr, madison indiana is no where near evansville. it is on the other side of the state.
charlie
Overall this looks like a good starter layout plan. There are two S curves just off the lift out/duck under. S curves need a straight section at least as long as your longest car between the curves to avoid derailing and/or uncoupling problems.
I also noted there is only one track shown leading into what looks like a two or three stall round house. If you plan to use all of the stalls how will locos get into the other stalls? Turntable? More turnouts (is there room)?
What is the orange inner loop? At one point it is labeled two tracks?
Finally, although I have no direct experience I understand double cross overs can be problematic. You might consider replacing the double with a single crossover and put an opposite single somewhere on the right had side where the two tracks parallel each other.
Good luck!
Try looking up “Whyte Steam Locomotive Classification”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whyte_notation
I agree, I would consider removing the double crossover and using 2 pairs of turnouts (switches) so you can create a passing siding or run-around track - in other words, a way to easily get the engines from one end of the train to the other. BTW we call them turnouts to avoid confusion with electrical switches.
Brad
Thanks Wilton, that is very interesting…and a couple more terms for me to go look up in glossary, they keep popping up…" Shay and a saddle tank "
edit: i see shay in glossary but not saddle tank
Hello,
Thanks for this info…
“S curves need a straight section at least as long as your longest car between the curves to avoid derailing and/or uncoupling problems”
not planning on a turntable, and didn`t see any single or dual engine houses…yet
the orange line is a road for automobiles…
“I understand double cross overs can be problematic”
Bummer!, …so i changed it a bit, removed the double crossover
Only the track on the North and East walls is where i want it, all the track on the West and South walls is “up in the air yet”…right now im just tossing track together any old way as im ignorant of how real RRs work and are laid out...ive got a lot of researching to do, it looks like, before i`ll be laying any track.
I also have to decide on what kind of scenery and industry(mining,logging,stockyard) as this will dictate track placement… i need to get busy!!
"
Try looking up “Whyte Steam Locomotive Classification”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whyte_notation"
Thanks! that really explains it
Shahomy,
Glad you liked the info on the Algoma incline. If you are interested, logging operations used inclines and chutes extensively, using cables or just gravity to move the logs. A very tasty research topic.
A saddle tank locomotive is a steam locomotive that carries it’s water in tanks mounted on the sides of the locomotive itself instead of in a tender attached to the rear of the loco. You can use Google search on your browser to see some examples of these locomotives. They are very interesting, with numerous design variations. While you are searching, Google Shay as well. They are in my opinion the coolest steam locos.
Wilton.