EB Products makes a very nice HO National Timken truck (T-327G) but it is molded in gray plastic. My question is what prototypical cars would use such a gray truck? (They also make trucks in Tuscan red, which I also don’t know where you would find in the real world-PRR?)
Those trucks look like, and a quick search showed them to actually be, the trucks offered at one time by Lindberg. In their day, these were as good as any available, but there are, in my opinion, better looking ones available nowadays.
Wayne
Indeed, if you look in the older magazines from the 60’s and into the 70’s, there was fairly consistent praise for the rolling qualities of Lindberg’s trucks. Problem with real sprung trucks (if they actually work) is that the springs are MUCH too fine to replicate the prototype - physics doesn’t scale. A scale size spring that actually looked like the real thing - you probably couln’t compress by leaning on the model with all your weight.
Grey plastic doesn’t bother me - you can always paint it. I paint all of my trucks, even if they are cast in black plastic, to kill the shine and make them look at least a little bit used. Grey would be not too common - perhaps on cement cars, where despite the railroad’s normal colors for box cars, the whole car is painted grey so the spilled cement doesn’t look as bad.
–Randy
Those trucks to me look like “early roller bearing” freight.
If I felt compelled to find a car that used trucks like that, IN GREY, I’d start with early covered hoppers. Being as covered hoppers tend to be grey. Of course, the trucks could also be black.
GN, for example, had roller bearings on some of their earliest. Unfortunately for this particular quest, the trucks were not grey, and they looked just like plain bearing trucks.
The trucks might pass for dirty aluminum painted trucks. Then you might scan early “yellow painted” UP freight cars. Stock cars come to mind.
After that, I got nuthin’. And what I DO have ain’t much.
Ed
I wonder if this EB Products is a successor or surviving fragment of the old E&B Valley firm which made a variety of model kits, and yes, trucks.
I have seen freight car trucks in both red (mostly on MOW cars) and black (which tends to weather to a brownish dark shade) on the prototype. Not gray but cannot rule it out.
Dave Nelson
the only road that i can think of off the top of my head was missouri pacific gray covered hoppers . you might check out fallen flags for roads that used gray paint to see if any others used them.
I looked at a lot of ACF 1958 covered hopper pictures. I didn’t find any that used trucks like this in grey. I did find some ACL cars that appeared to use the truck in BCR.
Ed
That particular Roller Bearing truck seems to be a bit unusual, but the idea of gray trucks, especially on covered hoppers, was definitely not unusual.
I recall seeing a paint chart that specified black trucks on new PRR boxcars in the early 1950’s, but I know for certain that red trucks were very common on freight cars of B&O, PRR, and others at that time. This has led me to conclude that shops tended to use red (same as the carbody) on repaints of the trucks of older cars.
I remember the Lindberg trucks fondly. At the time, there was nothing on the market that rolled more freely.
Tom
I cannot vouch for North American Gray/Grey trucks but the South Australian Railways painted their general vehicles Grey with the bogies to match e.g.
The first ones of these were actually built by ACF in the 1920’s under the Webb Rehabilitation of the SAR and modellers in the 60’s and 70’s liked the Lindbergh trucks - saved all that repainting!
Cheers from Australia
Trevor
Yes, they are the old Lindberg trucks.
Yes the version in question is an early inclosed Timken roller bearing, same design bearing as many tender trucks and similar to most early streamlined passenger roller bearings, and the latter conversion bearings for heavyweight passenger trucks.
Yes, most commonly used in the late 40’s/early 50’s on early covered hoppers, express box cars and reefers that ran in passenger trains, some early piggyback cars, etc.
Covered hoppers were a prime target because of the nasty loading/unloading enviroment that would contaminate grease in conventional journals.
Yes, many such trucks on covered hoppers were gray like the hopper…
Yes, model sprung truck springs do not have the visual mass of real truck springs. I still prefere them for their equalized operation. Most of my 1000 car freight car fleet rides on one brand or another of sprung trucks, incuding some Lindberg/EB roller bearings.
Again for any new people, my prefered freight car truck - Kadee sprung metal trucks refitted with Intermountain wheel sets…exhaustive testing has shown them to be the most free rolling and best tracking - sprung or unsprung.
But the EB/Linderberg truck is not bad either, and the Kadee brake shoes will clip right on them.
The Kadee plastic brake shoe detail is another reason I prefer the Kadee rucks.
Sheldon
One would think that. But I couldn’t find any in the rather extensive article on early ACF covered hoppers in “Railway Prototype Cyclopedia”. That certainly doesn’t cover the Pullman PS-2’s though.
That said, the only people who would notice and care about early Timken trucks used under a hopper would likely be impressed by your audacity of “insisting” that it was correct. 'Cause it looks like it sorta almost slight might could be.
Why not!
Ed
Interestingly, the use of these trucks on ANY freight equipment was rather limited. Only a few railroads saw the value, and a few tried them and never expanded their use.
There have been several discussions of these trucks on this forum over the years, and I don’t have all the research at my finger tips.
But they did exist, and were used on some freight equipment in the period mentioned.
The more modern “open cap” roller bearing trucks most are familiar with did not appear until 1954 and one of the first cars they appeared on were the new 75’ piggyback flats built for the PRR and Wabash.
If I have time later, I’ll dig out some photos of pre '54 freight cars with inclosed roller bearing trucks.
Sheldon
PS - remember this one:
Yup. But those two hole below the funny looking spring package disqualify them.
What else ya got, dude?
Ed
Why is that?
Don’t you know what those trucks are?
They are National B-1’s, the same trucks the ATSF used on it’s 1940 built 50’ ice reefers, Rr-30 and Rr-31.
And that was one of the common side frames for these rather rare roller bearing trucks from the 1940’s.
The ACY car appears to have a 1942 built date in that photo.
There you have it, a 1942 car, with trucks from the 40’s and roller bearings from the 40’s…
Sheldon
Here is a model of the box cars Timken used to promote roller bearing trucks - the very same type of roller bearing truck the OP asked about.
http://www.athearn.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=ATH71960
Athearn has been making this model almost since they appeared on the rails, going all the way back to their woodand metal line.
It comes with the correct trucks, no doubt the same tooling for this style truck once offered by Model Die Casting (Roundhouse).
These cars hit the rails in 1945 to promote roller bearing freight trucks.
Sheldon
Acording to several sources, including MR, SOME, not all, Great Northern 70 ton ACF covered hoppers built in 1951, where equiped with the trucks in question - specificly car #71096.
Regarding the color of trucks, on any equipment, there are endless photos, of all types of equipment, showing trucks (and underframes) painted the color of the car, be it gray (or grey) or oxide red. The UP painted trucks silver on lots of their yellow freight cars, the examples of trucks other than black are endless.
Sheldon
Sheldon,
The OP mentioned a particular model of truck produced by Lindberg, and asked “what prototypical cars would use such a gray truck?”
I interpreted that question to be asking about a car that would use the model he was describing, rather than gray trucks in general. That is, he wants to know what he can do with this particular truck. Which would explain why he posted the part number instead of just “grey roller bearing trucks”.
So, I was pointing out that the model of truck he was asking after was not used under the car you referenced. And I pointed out the “two holes” as proof.
I am looking at a builder’s photo of the GN car you are referencing (71096). The car side says: “TIMKEN ROLLER BEARING”. The car is not grey. The trucks are not grey. The trucks do not have the same bearing assemblies as the Lindberg truck–they look exactly like plain-bearing trucks.
I DID find a covered hopper that used the same style of trucks as the sample Lindberg: ACL 86700-87299, built January 1954. But the pictures show the trucks painted not-grey.
It appears that neither you nor I have come up with a use for the particular truck he asked after.
Ed
Ed, here is the problem as I see it.
You seem to take every prototype question like this very literal, and that would be great if we had progesssive photos of every freight car ever built, with dated details of every change ever made to it…but we don’t.
We don’t know if those ACL cars had grey or black trucks when built, we only know that one did not when that photo was taken.
Lawyers call it “facts not in evidence”.
If we restricted every detail of our modeling to stuff we can prove with a photo it would be impossable to have any modeling continuity for any era in the past. Especially on a layout of any size or wider scope.
If you browse (or search) MR in the early 50’s, there is considerable conversation about these inclosed Ti ken bearing trucks. Many companies made models of these trucks. I’m sure a detailed manual search of such resources would provide considerable info on their use.
As good as the “www” is, not every piece information is on there, not even close. Just because you cannot goole a picture of something, or flip open one book, foes not mean it did not exist. In my 50 years in this hobby, I have seen lots of once common information go by the wayside while other once obscure information as come to the forefront.
But in that brief period from 1939 to 1953, some number of freight cars had these Timken roller bearing trucks, and very likely some were grey (or gray).
My memory tells me I have seen them, but I have looked at a lot of trains in 50 years…
Sheldon
Oh. I thought the problem was that you were answering in generalities instead of specifics. I was trying to find an example of the usage he wanted. You are saying since I can’t PROVE these trucks were never used, and that they thus COULD have been used, he can go ahead and put them under just about any car he wants. Which I totally agree with. He can.
But then why would even bother to ask? He could just do it. Unless, of course, he feels the need for approval on the matter.
I believe the facts ARE in evidence. I looked at three photos of those ACL cars. One of them was a builder’s photo. You can look yourself: pages 28-29 in “Railway Prototype Cyclopedia, Volume 27”.
Sounds like you are holding that, since I don’t have photos of all 300 cars in the class taken, what?, daily, that it’s possible that on ONE day there was ONE car that had grey trucks.
Sure.
[quote]
If we restricted every detail of our modeling to stuff we can prove with a photo it would be impossable to have any modeling continuity for any era in the past. Especially on a layout of any size or wider scope.
If you browse (or search) MR in the early 50’s, there is considerable conversation about these inclosed Ti ken bearing trucks. Many companies made models of these trucks. I’m sure a detailed manual search of such re
Well Ed, the one thing we do agree on is that all the info presented is useful.
OK, so we do have proof that black Timken inclosed roller bearing trucks were installed on covered hoppers in the early 50’s. And between us it seems we have only touched on a few railroads and a few resources.
And if one of your photos is a builders photo, I would agree, that group was most likely all built with black trucks. I don’t have a copy of that resource…
Maybe we should also consider this point:
Why did Lindberg and later EB make the trucks in grey?
Just so happens I know the answer, I was working ina hobby shop when the Lindberg trucks were on the market…1970/71.
Lindberg offered ALL their styles of trucks in three colors, grey, black and oxide red. Why? Because it was well known back then that a fair number of railroads painted trucks the same color as the equipment with regard to those three colors.
MOW equipment was often grey and often had “dip” paint jobs. With or without roller bearing trucks many (not all by any means) cement hoppers were grey with matching trucks.
Lots of red oxide box cars (and hoppers of all sorts) had red oxide underframes and trucks when built.
Lindberg used this info in their promotion of the product. The rest of the industry generally only offered black, or bare metal of some sort.
Tell you what, you keep on answering questions as you see fit. I was happy to answer your question about steam generators and even provided a reliable source, an actual GM operating manual, for which I got no response from you. Not a thank you, not a challenge, no acknowledgement one way or another.
But you are sure quick with a glib comment when you don’t think I offer enough “proof”.
I do find it VERY interesting that any given copy of MR or Craftsman from the early 50’s is full of pictures, references, product ads, etc, for Timken inclosed roller bearing trucks,