I am seeking information on the following
When and if the Gt Northern updated its heavywieght fleet of passenger cars with airconditioning did it also replace the six wheel trucks with four wheeled trucks? When did this take place?
What is a symbol frieight?
Thanks in advance for your help
Alex
I’m sure GN must have updated some of their heavyweights with air conditioning, although I’m not sure when. The addition of ac would add to the weight of the car, so it’s very unlikely that such cars would receive four-wheel trucks. The extra wheels are to distribute the weight of the car over a wider area. Some cars with six wheel trucks were updated with roller bearings, but I don’t know if this was done on the GN.
Wayne
One of the odd things about GN about this time is that they bought some lightweight smoothside passenger cars in the thirties for the Empire Builder, but painted them Pullman Green so they blended in with the heavyweight cars.
Anyway, as far as I know, GN never switched a car to four wheel trucks from six wheels. I think they converted heavyweight cars to AC (at least those on the EB) around the same time - late thirties - early forties.
The GN did not purchase “lightweight” cars for the Empire Builder in the 30s.
What they purchased were called “Luxury coaches”. They did have a streamlined
appearance, but they were equipped with 6-wheel trucks and had that hallmark
of heavyweight construction–rivets. They were calledby the railroad ; “stream-styled”
but were never lightweight cars. And yes, the GN certainly equipped the Builder with roller bearings and this was on the 6-wheel trucks. GN was actually a rather late
entry into the streamliner era. Their first was the 1947 Empire Builder. It was
constructed as complete trainsets for wholesale replacement of the heavyweight
equipment-which was reassigned to the Oriental Limited-which name only lasted
until 1950 when it was replaced by the Western Star.
The Builder was updated with air conditioning in about 1937, I believe.
A symbol frt is simply one that’s identified as to origin, destination and type by letters. When I was working for the RR (20 years ago) the train number and symbols tended to be used interchagably. For example a train from LA to Bakersfield and beyond might be identified as 3MUG20 and run as second 801. The MUG indicate Mty UGene, the 3 would indicate the third train that day (the 20th of the month). On the Coast you could have the GGM (Golden Gate Manifest), the SMV (Santa Maria Valley connection, the reefer train for all perishable from south of San Luis Obispo) and the CME and CMW(the Coast Merchandise East and West) To add to the confusion some of the trains got nicknames. The SMV was the Smokey and the CME/CMW were the Zippers) I believe the current practice is to identify all trains by origin and destination and type which would (I think) make the current version of the CMW the LASFZ (Z indicating intermodal) Somebody more up on current practice might want to update this.
Many thanks for all your information on this subject.
Regards
Alex
Hey GN-Rick, When did the GN go to the orange and green scheme? I see heavy weights in this color and they don’t look right to me.
It was when they went to the streamlined EB, about 1954 or so, give or take a couple of years.
The orange and green “Empire Builder” scheme first appeared on diesels, starting I believe with the FT’s in 1941. It was first applied to passenger cars with the first streamlined Empire Builder of 1947. GN liked all the cars used on the EB to match so painted other passenger cars that could be on the EB to match, so quite a few heavyweight cars were repainted…although some cars made it to the sixties in Pullman Green.
(Just happens I was reading the Motorworks “Empire Builder” book last night.) [;)]
Argh! You’re right. I forgot about the FT’s and the '47 trainset. [:I] I knew '54 was stretching it. The actual date in the 50’s I was originally thinking of was 1951.
In 1955, they added both the long and short dome cars and this set-up is generally considered the “ultimate Empire Builder.”
In 1962, they began to do the simplified scheme on the engines, but, thankfully, left the passenger cars alone.
And we won’t even discuss 1967 and the “Big Sky Blue” scheme. sigh…[:(] (my apologies in advance to those 2 or 3 people who like that scheme.[:D])
I think they revamped the EB with new cars in 1950 (or 51), then again in 1955. It was kinda odd in '55, I think the regular domes arrived early in the year and the full car length “great domes” towards the end, kinda funny they’d ordered both types.
Great
Northern Domes
(GN)
by Al
The Great Northern was the last of the northern transcontinental railways to add domes to their premier train between Chicago and Seattle-Portland. The first of the northwest roads to add domes to their premier train was the Milwaukee Road who added Super Domes to the OLYMPIAN HIAWATHA beginning in December 1952. The next of the northwest trains to add domes was the NP NORTH COAST LIMITED with a pair of dome coaches added to each consist in August 1954 and a pair of dome sleeping cars added in November 1954 between Chicago and Pasco. The UP would have three Domes operating in each CITY OF PORTLAND train set by May 1955. One each of Astra-Dome Coach, Astra-Dome Dining Car and Astra-Dome Lounge Observation in each train set between Chicago and Portland. Even the CP CANADIAN was operating domes a month before the GN received the first of their domes in May 1955.
The GN EMPIRE BUILDER would be the first and only train in the US prior to Auto-Train to operate both short domes and a full-length dome in the same consist. When the GN went with domes they spared no expense beginning in May 1955 when three short dome leg rest coaches were added to each of the EMPIRE BUILDERS five consists. Two of the Great Dome coaches were through Chicago – Seattle cars while the third was a Chicago – Portland car operating between Spokane and Portland over the SP&S who would own one of the Great Dome coaches built for the EMPIRE BUILDER by Budd. The CB&Q who operated the EMPIRE BUILDER between Chicago and St. Paul owned three of these Budd built Great domes.
These Coach Domes built for the EMPIRE BUILDER were flat sided cars from Budd as were those built the year before for the NP NORTH COAST LIMITED. The cars were painted in the Omaha Orange, Pullman Green paint scheme with dulux gold separation stripes and lettering. They were an immediate hit with the traveling public. These were the standard 46 leg-rest seat cars with 24 non-revenue seats in
I have nothing to add right now. All questions have been answered more than
adequately, so far.
Rick,
I find it fascinating that I was modeling the BN transition time and with some coaxing from my wife (due to her love of roundnose engines, F units you know) I have since backdated to the steam-diesel era modeling the Great Northern. Erie Huh? Could we be twins seperated at birth?
Randy Johnson
Randy,
Oddly enough, it could possibly be so. I am an off-the-shelf model, so to
speak, so anything could have happened. And, yes, I have an extreme
fondness for GN’s myriad F units. Right now, I am rebuilding a pair of
Genesis F3s, an A/B set from 353-A/B to the 261-A/B set as it appeared
in about 1956.
GREAT
NORTHERN
Streamlined Coaches
By Al
The Great Northern Railway was the crowning achievement of James J. Hill known as the Empire Builder. Here was one railroad baron that was known around the world and that at one time his influence was felt from the Orient to Buffalo, with the GN owning and operating steamships between Duluth-Superior and Buffalo on the Great Lakes. The Railway itself operated from St. Paul – Minneapolis, Duluth – Superior to Winnipeg in Manitoba and to Seattle in Washington State along the shores of Puget Sound. From Seattle the GN operated trains north to Vancouver, B. C. and south to Portland. At one time the Great Northern operated steamships from Seattle to the Orient. In cooperation with the Northern Pacific they owned steamships operating from the mouth of the Columbia River at Flavel, Oregon to San Francisco faster than the rival Southern Pacific route could transport passengers between Portland and San Francisco.
The Great Northern would operate streamlined trains or semi-streamlined passenger trains between the following city pairs. Chicago-Seattle, St. Paul – Winnipeg, St. Paul – Duluth, St. Paul – Fargo, St. Paul – Grand Forks, Billings – Great Falls, Butte – Great Falls, Havre – Great Falls, Seattle – Portland, Seattle – Spokane, and Seattle – Vancouver.
The Great Northern Railway’s most famous train was named for James J. Hill and simply called the EMPIRE BUILDER. This train replaced the ORIENTAL LIMITED as the premier train of the Great Northern between Chicago and Seattle –Portland beginning June 11, 1929 when it was introduced as the finest all Roller-Bearing equipped train in America. The promotional advertising said all new but that referred to the first class section of the train only, the Coaches were 78 revenue seat cars delivered to the Great Northern in 1914 for the ORIENTAL LIMITED. The only thing new about these cars was the EMPIRE BUILDER name in the letter boards and the trucks that had been re-equipped with Roller B
WOW !
I have found out more about the Gt Northern in the last few days than in months of searching the internet. Many thanks for your input guy’s.
Alex
WOW !
I have found out more about the Gt Northern in the last few days than in months of searching the internet. Many thanks for your input guy’s.
Alex
From 1949 to 1963 I’d ridden the Empire Builder probably about ten times. And probably looked at the train a couple times a month in that same period. To see the Empire Builder stopped at Shelby MT was a childhood treat reinforced by my parents building a little farm kids anticipation to seeing the train. This is the first time I’ve heard all the details about the Empire Builder and its attendant Western Star. Seems many people these days don’t know about the WesternStar. We knew the diffference however when we crossed the viaduct going over the GN mainline at Shelby. Thanks for the info “passengerfan” you truly are one.
passengerfan, that is the most comprehensive listing I’ve ever seen on any passenger train operations. I have a question in regards to the paint scheme for GN passenger cars. Was the Omaha Orange and Pullman Green scheme on all lightweight cars such as the those for the Western Star and Internationals? Would the only difference be that they carried Great Northern in the letterboard instead of Empire Bulider?
I model the CB&Q lines west and want to add some occasional GN cars to my Zephyrs (I’ve seen pictures), seems most times it was sleepers that made it over to the Q.
Rick