The question is, who will get reworked first, and who has the best reworking plans?
Bob
The question I have is how am I going to repaint the one mill from silver/aluminum to a crimson red colour? I may just scratchbuild the dang thing again and remake the front end----I have to go back there and retake the photo for it----ding batteries went blargh on me–and silly me forgot to take batteries wit’ me—
By most folks standards I have a decent sizes layout, around 175 Sq foot. Of the around 300 cars I have, only around 60 cars if that are RTR cars. 30 of them are Bachmann silver coal cars and covered hoppers which I got at a fair prices. Most of the car are the old BB Athearn’s kits, I could have never afford the numbers of cars if they where RTR at $15.00.
The reason I could build as big of a bench as I did is the fact I had the room, not because of the RTR stuff. Finding ways to get cheap lumber (dumpster diving) cheap foam (asking for discounts at Home Depot for damaged foam) E Bay has helped with used turnouts (49 total, 30 or so used) and some rolling stock and flex track has helped with the budget part.
Far as trees, well I liked store bought when I was trying to fill the layout. But, I think as we get more advances they start to fall out of favor. I have pulled around 100, that are now laying in a box. I prefer Super Tress and they do look more real.
Far as RTR engines, BB are RTR if you don’t count the grab irons. Now that I am DCC, I only buy DCC ready or DCC sound engines. Converting BB with hot chassis is a pain in the caboose.
In my case, RTR had nothing to do with the sizes of my layout.
Cuda Ken
I disagree with a number of assertions the OP made. First and foremost, RTR does not replace scratchbuilt (well it can, but not significantly) Prior to the modern world of prototype cars, people didn’t scratchbuild, they bought Athearn and MDC and Roundhouse shake the box kits. They were of dubious prototype and molded on details, but if you needed a large number of cars, that’s what you did. I also disagree with the notion that more people are building larger layouts. In point of fact, more people are building modest layouts. I also disagree with the term. A McMansion is not a large house, it is in fact a small lot with a bigish, but not big house on it. I would argue that the average mcmansion has less space for a layout. I mean basements are practically a thing of the past.
No, I think the modestly sized home layout is still king. The press features large layouts, because they try to feature some of the most unique and impressive modeling out there. Big layouts are of course impressive. You still don’t see them doing clinics on basement empires.
To get back on topic, I think RTR in some sense hurts largers model railroads, because the relative cost of a car has gone up significantly. If I need to buy 50 coal cars. Which makes more economic sense? 10 5 packs at $70 a pop for $700 or 50 shake the box kits for $7 a pop? It simply costs more in real dollars to build a large car and locomotive fleet and we have less free unfinished space in our homes.
This thread proposes the notion that somehow scratchbuilt finescale modelling is being supplanted by RTR, that’s not true and never was, Finescale has always been in parallel to the large layout crowd. RTR has much more of an impact on cost for large layouts. It costs more in real dollars than it ever has before.
Also this, Blue Box engines will run right out of the box. The only parts not added are a few details easy to break and the handrails. If the modeler can’t handle doing those things…
I like RTR. I don’t know that it will enable a bigger layout, so much as a big layout getting operational quicker.
I plan to start my “big one” this fall/winter after some finishing work in the basement. While the layout will be about 1000sq ft (Not the largest of layouts, but something I can build AND maintain) It will of course be a shortline railroad in S scale. While detailed planning hasn’t begun, some general planning has established that the number of turnouts will be under 100 (about 80-90). I have estimated my rolling stock minimum needs at approximately 75 and maximum at about 150 - I have about 150 or so, perhaps half are RTR or Near RTR (need couplers and scale wheels). I estimate that the layout will need 6 locomotives to be operational, I have 12 of which 8 are RTR, 7 with DCC. The idea here is to have a large layout that is modest on track, cars, and engines.
Using RTR track (i.e. flex) and DCC, my goal is to be operational in under two years - benchwork, track, wiring, cars, and locomotives. RTR makes this possible, otherwise the layout could take several years to become operational.
Once operational, I will leisurely build kits, scratch build, do scenery, etc. But I will also be running trains.
Enjoy
Paul
Don’t even think of comparing the BB locomotives with their RTR twins-reread my above post…There is no comparison as far as operation…Also all Athearn RTR locomotives isn’t BB…No way is the RPP SD45 kin to the fat body BB SD45 nor is the highly upgraded SD40-2 kin to the BB SD40-2…
Jeeehozaphat. I go to work for a day and this thing takes off. There have been a lot of points made and I agree with a lot of them as well. I will comment that I don’t think comparing the detail between an old kit and a modern RTR is a fair comparison. The RTR of today starts as a “kit” that is assembled for us, so the same level of detail could be provided in a kit.
My “problem” if you wish to call it that, is that the RTR out there doesn’t cover my prototype. With today’s RTR the often limited production means it can be years before that car/locomotive is produced again. If I need a specific prototype that isn’t made, there often also isn’t a reasonable way to kitbash one from parts (as mentioned in the steam thread). Rather I have to buy a fully assembled item that isn’t easily 'bashable. If my saw cut is off, there’s a couple hundred down the drain.
This point isn’t to convince modelers with large layouts and RTR to change their points of view. Rather I would hope to get manufacturers to recognize there are other needs in this hobby as well and offer alternatives for those of us in the latter group.
A fellow club member at my club had 2 high hood BLI SD40-2s He got them on sale, but they are regularly over $200 a piece. He was breaking them in and they both ran like junk. Clearly flash on the gears.
I on the other hand grabbed a couple Blue Box Tunnel motors and they ran flawlessly out of the box. probably 15 years old.
But even if I agreed that your obsevation was always true, it doesn’t change the fact that Athearn Blue Box locomotives are not kits. You snap in the couplers and you run it. And heck, I have modern RTR engines and cars that have more parts to put on than any shake the box kit ever.
Far as RTR cars, it takes about the same time to get one of them right as it takes to build a BB kit. I bought 2 RTR box cars, both where under weight. By the time I got them apart to add the needed weight, added Kadee’s and tuned the trucks it was just a little quicker than starting a BB kit from scratch.
One thing I will say about the RTR Athearn cars is the coupler height is more accurate than the old kits.
Cuda Ken
Ken,All I do to my RTR cars and locomotives is switch out the couplers to KD’s
I built enough BB car kits over the last 55 years to know there was a lot of tweaking involved just to get the coupler height right because of warp frames and bent weights-this tweaking isn’t needed with the RTR cars not mention if that coupler box clip didn’t snap in place you had to drill a hole for a 2-56.
As far as I’m concerned BB RIP.
Well,I was sharing my eye opening experiences with Athearn’s RTR and BB locomotive and I believed that may hold true in many cases throughout the hobby…
Reason?
My best guess since I haven’t done any real testing is there less friction between the old drive train and the new drive train because of the one piece shaft instead of several piece drive shaft that was on a angle
While its true one could run their BB engines without side and end rails how many of us did? Not many
I guess my problem is that I only have time to concentrate on one aspect of model railroading. While I enjoy the “model” part and occasionally build simple kits, I enjoy the “railroad” part more and so focus on operating. So good-enough RTR and simple structures are good enough for me. As long as they look like they could be in the Appalachians in the 30’s, AND RUN WELL, I’m in. The cost savings of kits is negligible for me, because I don’t have much space to fill.
The whole RTR thing goes back to what the modeling society at large wants. And it fits in with our whole current “gotta have it now” society we live in. Many folks have multipule jobs, kids, and other life demands that leave little to no time to do the “modeling” part of the hobby. The days of dad working 40-50hours a week and having some down time on the weekends while mom raised the kids and stay at home are mostly gone today. So the major manufactures make trains to fit this life style. Thus more folks enjoy this great hobby than would if everything was still in kit form. I thankfully for now have plenty of down time to enjoy modeling and kit building. I am not well off in the wallet so I have to save up and plan most purchases, but I enjoy what I have. The used tables and ones with collections being sold off at model train shows are my favorite place to shop, along with ebay. I have very little RTR stuff and dont plan on buying much either. Older kits of all types, PFM brass steamers and Athearn Blue Box diesels that I can make look and run better than the RTR stuff is my choice. As long as everybody can find what they want and enjoy the hobby, then lets go enjoy it. Now lets get back to playing with trains, or is that operating our layouts. Mike T
Given the information in the other thread about Sanda Kan and the wage increases in China, one wonders if the economics of RTR (ie, it doesn’t cost much more to just put the thing together) might no longer make sense for companies like Athearn. I would not be the least surprised to see the current RTR cars return as kits to keep prices down.
Unless there is a big turn around in the hobby you won’t be seeing any BB kits…Athearn has stated time and again those kits was not selling…I can fully understand that since the hobby in general has shifted gears into a RTR market that demands more accurate cars and locomotives-Athearn has stated they have several more upgrades scheduled along with new models…
I do agree sooner or later the price bubble will burst but,until then we can expect higher prices…
Brakie, I bet there are a few lifetimes worth of BB kits on the market. Whats getting hard to find are parts to repair/replace missing parts on the BB locomotives. I need handrails for a SD45 and a GP9, along with headlight lenses for both. I just watch junk boxes/trays at shows for shells with needed parts. I am using old Athearn GP9’s for my black NW custom paints. They just look good in that black NW noodle logo and some good weathering. I just plug the horn holes and put the proper 5 chime on the cab roof. The local shop still has a good supply of both BB kits, freight/passenger and locomotives. But things are selling down as modelers buy up whats left. Tables of BB kits, Roundhouse, Silver Streak, Labelle ect are my favorite tables to stop and shop at shows and always will be. Mike
For those waiting for the price bubble to burst I suggest the opposite. In 2011 there are some major tax increases coming in the US. If you’re not aware of them start reading. I’d stock up ASAP because I think inflation is on the way and prices are going to go much higher.
Well, By Gar (he said, reaching for his cane and hoisting himself out of his easy chair) when I was a kid just starting out in this here hobby I used to walk seven miles uphill each way to the Hobby Shop in snow up to my armpits and down the aisles full of them thar upstart model planes to the one shelf with them thar boxcar kits from Athearn, Varney, Silver Streak, Ulrich (oops, Ulrich only did gondolas, hoppers and such) and decide what I was going to spend my weekly allowance on. Then got the little devil of the week home, opened it,looked at all of those wood or metal parts and said to myself, “Oboy, I’ve got my week’s project ahead of me after I do all the chores and my homework and piano practicing.”
Okay, I broke in on kits. Got used to building them, so that when Athearn came out with shake-the-box plastic, it was a bigger shock to me than even the somewhat later Vatican II, LOL! But I adjusted, because the easier kits gave me extra time to actually work on the layout.
But I will say in all honesty–WHAT RTR? I’m still changing out couplers and in some case wheelsets, and don’t even ASK me about all of the adjustments I have to do on Walthers passenger cars just to get them to take my relatively well-laid 34" MINIMUM radius curves, LOL! Oh yah, and replacing those fragile plastic grab-irons and stirrups on some of those exquisitely detailed RTR freight cars if I happen to pick them up wrong. Hey, I have Klutz Attacks just like everyone else–I just knocked a window-shade off of my brand new Genesis SP 4-8-2, for cryin’ out loud![:-^]
But seriously, if I see a good old-fashioned kit at a train show or swap meet–no matter how old the kit, if I like it, I’ll take it home and build it. Of course, the older kits go at current RTR prices, because they’re now considered ‘antique’ and ‘valuable’. A couple of years ago I picked up an
Mike,PM me your addy…I have a extra set of GP7 lenses you’re welcome to…