I picked up the new Hallmark/Lionel UP Veranda turbine (and tender) ornaments yesterday. Very nice. Lets hope Hallmark got a license from UP before running it!!!
Sorry Bob, but this is just too tempting. So to mimic your CTT product reviews…
Cons - Greatly reduced pulling power due to lack of motor
Pros - For the first time in ages, Lionel makes a scale proportioned replica that looks too small next to 027 types of products.
[:D]
Bob, I think CTT has come a long way in the past few years in editorial content, not that it was ever bad to begin with. At one time, I might have considered it a draw choosing between OGR and CTT for differing reasons, but not anymore.
But when you review smaller products, I don’t know why you list the smaller size as a con, like you did with the Williams Alco Postwar reissues. I would imagine most scale folks know as postwar reissues, these are not scale proportioned. I actually consider smaller size a BIG plus, especially in these days where the vast majority of products made are clearly scale proportioned.
If the same standard were applied both ways, then the recent review of the Atlas SD40 would clearly have to state under CONS that the loco is too big to look good with smaller 027 layouts.
Ah, can’t please everyone, huh? [:D] On the other hand Bob, I’m certain you and the gang at CTT are trying!
Hi Brian, Whenever I writing something like size as a CON, my line of thinking goes back to when I bought the RailKing F3s (before I came to CTT). As nice as they are, they were out of kilter insofar as most of my rolling stock - and I didn’t have all that much scale-size gear at the time. So this is more of a flag that they should try to see it before they bought it, just in case. If you’re a subscriber, you can access the 300+ reviews we’ve uploaded and make additional comments - such as your view on size - and if it gets through my personal review (boooohahahahahaha) [oh, if I could see the smiley face menu I’d put a clown face right about here, so people would know I’m joking with the boooohahahahahaha] it’ll be there to offer another perspective on the same product.
Wow, I love Bob’s reviews. I have to find this section - or rather all the priviledges and benefits that go with subscribing. I heard the Veranda Turbine was pushed about at the Illinois Railway Museum this past Sunday. What a massive beast.
i sure wish someone (L!) would do a Lionmaster Veranda!! mostly i am writing this reply to make sure my rejoining of the new forum is working ok. 
HI Bob, of course I understand that size matters - at least for trains (Boy, that was a quick recovery!). I just know that there are others besides me, who don’t view smaller loco size as a con, but a pro. Just wish there was another way of saying it. Like I said, when I read the review of an otherwise nice scale loco, I view the fact it’s full scale as a major CON.
That said, just to show I am an Equal Opportunity Wisenheimer (the EOW, the law of the comedian)…
fjerome: on your wish that someone would do a Lionmaster Veranda - let’s let Hallmark make that one! [:D]
On the serious side, Jerry Calabrese pretty clearly spelled out what the future of Lionel products will be in the last issue of OGR. Of course, words are one thing and actual actions are another. Calabrese isn’t the first to realize that the marketing efforts (and product offerings) are one-sided lopsided at best. Various industry people (including others at Lionel) have spoken of what Calabrese did for the past 16 years. The news that the train market and the typical train buying market are lopsided comes as no news. What would be news would be the introduction of more affordable smaller intro products - and some undated ones at that, and not just the same ol’ ones that have been in starter sets for the past sevberal decades.
What Lionel needs to do is make some decent products along the lines of the RMT Beep, Buddy and Beef. They have access to the K-Line tooling ,so we’ll see if they have the wisdom to bring out some of the more affordable smaller former K-Line products like the Alco and the S-2.
But I’ll believe it when I see it. Talk is cheap. What the market really needs are some affordable well made (cheap to use the word very loosely) trains. Lionel could take a lesson from RMT and leave the big steamers to Hallmark for a w
Brian,
You do make a very good point. I’m not into scale (although I have the Latest Lionel scale Hudson) because I have a small layout and prefer smaller products. I love BEEPs, too. So smaller size is a big plus for me as it is for you. I also don’t believe that as I become more engrossed in model railroading that I’ll suddenly want scale everything. Toy train layouts are awesome and what got me interested in trains, even though scale layouts are beautiful, probably superior, and what my wife is asking me to build (although she likes my tinplate Marx the best–figure that one out).
Anyway, some of us prefer the small stuff and don’t want 72" curves (even though I’ll probably get at least one loop of it). So put me in the toy train/non-scale column for preference.
What’s scale with three rails anyway?
Dan
I know that I LOVE this bad boy and ordered the NYC version for myself:
I reread that Calabrese piece. It looks as if he had his way, Lionel would be more judicious in what it produces for the hobby market and really expand the licensing of sets.
Licensing was just a small part of that article Doug.
The key issues (as I read them) were adressing the reached untapped buyers with affordable products and carefully assessing new products viability and profitability. Scale consumers have been spoiled rotten by the trains companies willingness to produce products from expensive new tooling that can just barely pay for themselves at their given list price point. Blowouts further reduce the profit margins on these new products. Calabrese said no one shouold expect Lionel to contine to produce the vast selection of products that cannot recoup their costs - BUT how this sits with the very vocal minority of this hobby remains to be seen. Remember, it is not the novice with a kid’s train layout that corners the execs at YORK.
When I was a kid, my dad wanted to buy a piece of land behind our home as a road was being constructed. He came back furious, saying he wanted to pay for a piece of land, not pay for the road to be constructed. This picture is what is partially wrong with the hobby. Many of the across the board price increases even on basic products, are to help pay for the expense of the higher end more costly products that won’t sell if they were realistically priced where they should be.
For example, many want a Centercab switcher made. It’s done and made. No more asking, just open your wallet because it’s brass and expensive. Now a Centercab if approached along the lines of the RMT BEEP or the Lionel Docksider might very well be a hit. But those compromises will obviously not please the vocal minority.
Calabrese said a lot of things in that article, but I’m not going to believe any of it until I actually see the catalogs and see the products that Lionel needs to make to accomplish his goals. Lionel would do well to remember that many of us chose K-Line years ago over Lionel
It seems that your typical serious train buyer would rather buy one scale diesel for $400 with all the bells and whistles verses four 027 diesels for $100 each. Both Lionel and Atlas have come out with scale conventional engines in the $200 range such as the Lionel SD-40T-2 and Trainman RSD-5. Both are nice engines. Many people prefer scale because they are railfans and want their equipment to look right.
It will be interesting to see what is in the next Lionel catalog. Calabrese has stated that lower-priced items are going to be emphasized, but then says they are putting TMCC II in a newly tooled scale Bigboy. There’s plenty of affordable products on the secondary market for me. And other companies like RMT and Williams also cater to my crowd. Jim
No doubt that the typical scale modeler probably would like one nicer loco versus several comprosmised ones, true. But this begs the question, is the typical scale 3-rail modeler the typical (and majority) train customer? And everything I read and hear says no. I haven’t been to YORK in a while but I have had reps from the 3 major companies all tell me that the scale buyer is not the clear majority customer, although they may enthusiastically spend more dollars. Just as even Lionel 's own statements have indicated that the numbers of modelers fully using digital control is very disappointing given the length of time the systems have been available.
And now again, I’ll point to the BEEP. Why is this product so successful then? It’s not really scale, because it’s not really prototype. The detail level, though adequate, is certainly below par compared to many other products, and yet the BEEP has done tremendously well. I dare say there are a majority of train buyers who actually would rather have several more affordable engines in their favorite road names, that just one very nice, expensive loco. Even some of the more “serious” buyers have found the BEEP to be easily improved and ungraded.
Now that sounds like a winning product… one that appeals to everyone!!!
I remember going to a state fair some years back and having a laugh watching this young ego filled guy spend nearly $100.00 on some shooting game trying to win his girl some stuffed bear. This scenario reminds me so much of the train business today from an industry standpoint: foolish, not practical, financially ill-advised and full of self-importance. I mean this guy I watched could have easily bought the same cheap bear at a fraction of the cost. He could have bought a top notch quality stuffed bear and still have lots leftover for a very nice dinner. I remember when the guy exclaimed "I can’t believe I just spent
Going back to the Lionel strategy thing… I am intrigued by Jerry’s seeming intent to expand the potential market by reaching out to potential customers / collectors who didn’t care about trains per se but were interested in purchasing sets logo’d in their area of interest like NASCAR, as well as expanding the selling sets at a premium (to us) in higher-end retailers, like ‘2nd story department stores’ (Hechts, etc.)… creating opportunities for more of an impulse buy from a customer who might recognize the Lionel name as meaning something… I got the impression these sets weren’t necessarily going to be more affordable or playable - just solid in his definition of quality. I do not mean to imply that he intends to ignore hobbyists but seems to properly see us as a closed-end part of the market. And bringing this thread full-circle, how about his commitment to Christmas-themed items…