I might be getting in over my head with this one… but I’ll ask anyway.
I’m currently in planning stages for my layout, and it appears that I will be able to save some money by hand laying some (or all) of the track. Specifically, for all of the #4 TO’s that will be used (there’s like 25 of them). There are two things that I need to know before heading down this path -
how “close” are the Atlas Customline #4’s to a “true” #4
which Fasttracks jig should I use in light of the accuracy (or lack thereof) of Customline TOs
For actual trackwork, I imagine that I will need a guage (or two or three), and most of the same tools that would be used for the TO work.
Atlas HO #4’s are 4 1/2. You don’t say what type of equipment you are using, but unless you’re using 40’ or less you’ll want #5’s. Long equipment may require #6’s.
The critical radius in a turnout is in this RP 12 table http://www.nmra.org/standards/rp12_3.html line 11 Rail (Radius ) under Closure Distance. For #4 it’s 15", for #5 it’s 26", for #6 it’s 43". You can see why Atlas made their #4’s a little larger.
Can’t help you with your questions but handlaid track is definitely something that I want to get into on my next layout rendition. My club layout has a couple of the Fasttrack #6 double-crossovers. They not only look beautiful but track beautifully, too.
The upfront cost for the jigs is initially a bit steep. But, if you are going to have a number of turnouts on your switching layout, the jigs will pay for themselves pretty quickly. I nice productive project for you when you want to take a much needed break from your school work…
You may be saving money but you will be spending much more time. Unless you have a Kadee spiker tool or equivalent it can be very slow going. I really love hand laying track. I just don’t have the time to do it, as I love doing other things more.
As the prior poster noted Atlas is about a #4.5 and has a unique short diverging leg. I personally have had nothing but trouble with true #4 turnouts. That extra 0.5 really makes a big difference. I know nothing of Fasttracks.
I use three types of gauges. The classic three point track gauge (quantity at least 3), a rolling track gauge, and the NMRA template gauge. I really liked the NMRA Mark II gauge best for laying turnouts since it had (in my opinion) better flangway & frog clearance knotches/bumps (what is the opposite of a knotch anyway?) on it.
I have used the Fast Tracks #8 jigs, and they are marvelous. With some care and learning, you will have superior turnouts that are silky smooth. No bumpy and solder-filled frogs. Your first turnout will take close to 2 hours, but by the time you have made four, you’ll be down to near one hour per. Since a decent commercial turnout is near $25, give or take, that is what your time is worth using the Fast Tracks jigs, and yours will be considerably better.
Having laid a lot of raw rail on ties track, IMHO the best way to fly today is to connect hand-laid specialwork with good quality flex track. Otherwise you will either spend forever (and too much cash) putting four spikes in every tie, or spike every fifth tie or so and end up dis-satisfied with the result.
I dimly recall that Atlas hedged their #4 turnouts to about #4.5 They are still mighty tight for anything longer than 50 scale feet. The higher the frog number, the longer the rolling stock that can pass through it without hiccups. More critical, however, is the S-curve situation. A string of cars that can negotiate a single turnout may get bound up by coupler swing when going through a crossover between parallel tracks.
Never having used a Fastracks jig, I’m afraid I can’t help there. My specialwork isn’t laid to a measured frog angle. I lay down theoretical track centers, then use lengths of “stiff” flex track (ancient Atlas fiber-tie brass flex track![:D]) to establish the tie lines. Stock rails get laid next, followed by the “interior” of the switch - which may be a three-way, slip switch or an entire station throat. This, I believe, is exactly the reverse of the usually-recommended method, but it works for me.
Paul: It’s late steam era/early transition, so I’m gonna have the rare 50’ car (although steam is going to be very prevalent)
Tom: There’s a club up here!? where?!
TZ: I have time, not so much on the money front [;)]
Chuck: I see what you mean. There’s a lot of work that would go into setting 4 spikes to the rail per tie. I remember someone had a link to a company that sold tie-plates with either 3 or 4 molded in spike heads, and you’d alternate them every few ties to spike it down, but it’d look like every tie had 4 spikes…
I have never used a turnout helper like fasttrack, although I hear they are very good. On my site I show how to make turnouts if you are interested. Although they are stub switches the principle is the same and might be helpful to you.
Also for practice [I don’t lay track after it is down obviusly] when I start a layout, I do the tunnels first
Anyhow, hope it helps.
I’ve recently started handlaying my TOs, but still use flextrack (Atlas Code 83). I use micro engineering’s micro spikes that are only 3/16" long. The spike head is considerably smaller allowing you to spike the rails down where they are in close vicinity of each other such as at frogs and flange ways. I like the Rollee round guages that roll along the track. I also use my NMRA guage, thre point guages and an assortment of guages from Mico-Mark that includes a long plastic one for getting flex trak straight, a parrallel guage to space adjacent track on 2" centers, and a soldering fixture with notches in it that you place over a rail join for soldering. This kit also has a radius tool to lay out curves. Tweet
Wow this is interesting timing. I am in the exact same boat. I am doing the same era in a dock /urban switching area. I was looking at #4’s also because they seem to look more prototypical. I was going to get a Fast Tracks jig for #4 code 70 and make my own but am a little nervous about the tight radius. 50ft cars like Gondola and Flats where all over place by this time. There where a lot of 50 Box cars then too. I look at the build date on the model before I buy it to make sure it is in the time era. I thnk I might buy some “true” #4s and run some trains thru them on a temporrary set up.
Forgot to add I have a #5 Fasttrack Jigs and after just a little practice they make awesome cost effective turnouts that are smooth as silk. I personally really like the look of the rails that go from the points to the frog without the hinge in it. Besure to watch the videos they have and get a GOOD 35watt soldering iron and they go together very well.
For what its worth, I could not afford the fast tracks jigs so I made my own jigs using scrap rail and printed circuit board. I soldered the rail to the PCB using my NMRA guage to set the guage, distance between flangeways, and point spread. I can now use this to make a turnout fairly quickly. I may not be as good as a fastracks jig, but it diddn’t cost anything but a little of my time which was going to be spent on the layout anyway. Tweet
FWIW, from what I’ve read on forums by those who study prototype track, about the sharpest turnouts generally used by the prototype on spurs were #7s. And most prototype turnouts used hinged points. But is much easier to make good looking non-hinged turnouts - prototype hinging arrangements are pretty small in HO scale. Non-hinged turnouts are also easier to make operate smoothly.
The NMRA closure rail radius for a #4 turnout is indeed 15". But note that the length of the curved closure rail section is less than 2.5 inches. The distance from the beginning of the points to the frog is about 5". Since the length of the curve is less than a car length, the impact of the sharp radius is substantially diminished by the straight frog extending beyond the curve, and any straight track prior to the points.
As long as your freight cars have typical truck wheel bases, they wil
By now, I’ve hand laid for the first time quite a bit of HO track. I found by far, the best gauges other than the NMRA gauges for turnouts, is the Rollee roller guages from Railway Engingeering. Much faster to use and accurate. I would not do it without the Micromark pliers for spiking. I did not want to spring for the jigs, so I followed faithfully Tony Koester’s instructions for hand laid turnouts in the book Trackwork & Lineside Detail. I found that after about two turnouts, it was quite easy and had wonderful results. Keeping a loose guage at the points, a very tight guage at the frog, and making sure the curve closure rail has a straight run through the frog is very critical and works wonders. I too used MicroMarks small spikes. At rail joints, I used unsoldered joiners, but spiked three ties on each side and kept the rail straight using the side of the NMRA guage when spiking. On curves, I soldered the joiner and two rails together before laying the rail. I may be a glutton for punishment, but I found hand laid track to be fun and most satisfying when finished. Let us know how it goes for you. Hal
This is my take on doing turnouts as well. Sure the intial investment in the FastTracks jigs will be spendy. But so are commercial turnouts if you need more than a couple of them.
How much is long-term satisfaction worth? In my experience, with commercial turnouts you will experience more derailments than with hand-built turnouts that are spot on the NMRA specs (unlike commercial turnouts).
If you compare the price of one turnout to the jigs, the jigs will lose every time. If you compare the price of ten or 15 commercial turnouts to the price of ten or 15 turnouts built with the jigs (and include the price of the jig) the price will be about the same or the hand-built turnouts will be slightly cheaper.
And if you need more than 10-15 turnouts, why wouldn’t you want the better turnouts since the price will get better and better the more turnouts you need.
Were I starting over (120 turnouts on the HO Siskiyou Line), it would be FastTracks jigs all the way.
I plan to order some Fast Tracks jigs soon. I’ve figured that for the amount of switches I plan to build, I can save some money to spend on flextrack instead. Commercially prepared switches would cost about 50% more than making them myself with the jigs. Besides, if I need a few more turnouts at some point in the future, I can just make them. Which beats ordering them and hoping that they are in stock…
I can’t imagine wanting to hand lay track. It seems like such a tedious process, even for someone who becomes proficient at it. I’m sure you save a few bucks but in my case, time is tighter than money. I can’t imagine the results are that much better than commercial track, which if properly painted and weathered will can look as good as anything. I use mainly Atlas code 83 with a few special Walthers turnouts mixed in and looks good and works well. I can think of many better uses of my time then laying track tie by tie and then spiking rail to it. What am I missing?
If you have the time and inclination to do it, I don’t think anything will look better than hand-laid, at least down to HO. In N I’m not sure that the sizes of spikes, etc, might ne better molded than real, but having never seen handlaid N with my own eyes, I’m not saying.
Turnouts are another story. I’m making mine (N scale, with Fasttracks jigs). It takes time. But I’m going to save quite a bit of money, and they look way better than what I would have been able to afford. When I get to it there will even be a doubleslip, which I’ll build without the jig (couldn’t justify for one), sort of to prove I can. I hope I’m right.
What are you missing? Nothing, really. But, for everyone has different priorities and desires…money, appearance, time, operations, etc. For some, the journey is the fun, they like handlaying. Others want to be running yesterday. There is room for both sorts.
