Actually kind of a logic problem for those with experience in the topic…
I’m more than familiar with all of the usual hand signals used to direct the locomotive - we use them several times a day for our runarounds (as opposed to using the radio - but we have short trains). Directions (back up, go ahead) are given with relation to the designated front of the locomotive. No sweat there.
But… On our southward leg, the locomotive is coupled to the train on its “F” end. Hence, it’s backing up. On the way back north, we’ve put the locomotive on the north end of the train, and it’s now running forward (Being an RS3, that means long hood forward).
So the logical confusion is this - If, as we prepare to leave the station headed south (and although we usually do this by radio anyhow), I lean out of the vestibule and give a hand signal, should it be “go ahead” or “back up”?
I know, the obvious answer is “back up,” but on the other hand, we want the entire train to go “forward,” (south) with the engine in the lead…
The engineer knows he has to place the reverser in reverse … and by rule you give the signal in relation to the direction of the leading locomotive. So if it has to reverse … you say backup … because although the train is going forward to its destination … the locomotive is operating in reverse.
I would say while the engine is moving without cars or you are switching, use the “F” for your hand signals. When the train is complete and ready to go, you want the train to proceed.
The best thing would be to either have a rule for all your crews do the same thing, which ever signal they decide to use or at least an understanding among all the crewmembers on the train.
I assume the engineer whistles off before moving. Which signal do they sound when the engine is coupled forward end to the train? Two longs or three shorts.
As you can see, there are variotions on a theme here. Each region and/or railroad has/had its own variation of the general system.
But RRBoomer has given the basic general rule here — EVERYONE in the crew must agree on “what’s what”. So, before you turn a wheel on your shift, have an agreement with the hog-head what signals he wants to see and where and when he wants to see them.
As you can see, in Houston on Ed’s railroad, it depends on if you want the hog-head to come toward you or go away from you - not the “F” direction of the locomotive. On the railroads I have worked on, it was the direction the “F” end is when switching or moving the engine around, but when the train has become a train, the front of the train is where the locomotive is and forward is in the direction the locomotive pulls the train, and you give the signals from the right hand side of the TRAIN. Of course, you need signal passers for that at times, so two or three man crews often have to make different arrangements.
So, to answer your original question, if you were on any of “my” railroads, you would give “ahead” signals to get the train out of the depot even though the locomotive is “backwards” from the platform (and then get on quick!) or if no platform, from the right side of the train either while still on the ground or from the vestibule steps. But while getting the locomotive run around the train, “F” is forward - the other direction is back.
Round our neck of the woods the rule book only describes hand signals in terms of moving toward or away from the person giving them. There is no forwards or backwards.
I was taught on CNW that hand signals indicated “move toward me” and “move away from me”. At night, however, lantern signals were tied in with the “F” on the locomotive.
I remember other practices, though. I took a CNW-style “move away from me” signal to my old friends on the GTW once when I visited, and they had never seen anything like it. They also related everything to the direction of movement of the train, rather than how the locomotive was facing. I saw an engineer refuse to take a backup signal from a new guy, and when he asked him about it, the new guy was telling him which end of the locomotive the “F” was on. The engineer had a good laugh over that. I was very sober later when I was taught the same thing on CNW.
With the exception of the run-arounds at the ends of the trips, we pretty much work with radio anyhow - that way everyone on the crew knows what’s up, even if they aren’t looking. In fact, we are restricted from using whistle signals at our base of operations, so the hogger can’t even acknowledge that way - he (or she) would have to repeat the hand signal (as is done with three step when we are using the hand signals).
As for a “highball” hand signal, I don’t recall seeing that in my NORAC book…
Thanks to all for your responses (although we try not to use Z’s hand signal, tempted though we may sometimes be). No question that everyone has to understand what signals will be used. In fact, we always announce (on the radio) that we will be changing between radio and hand signals.
N&W had dual control stands up to a point, so, for me it depended on which side of the locomotive the engineer was operating from. The “F” had nothing to do with it.
The thing to remember was that the engineer was always on the right hand side and faced ahead, no matter which side of the unit he was on. So, I will give a go ahead signal for him to go in the direction he was facing. A back up signal for him to go in the direction where he was looking backwards.
It was always awkward for me to give, or take, hand signals any other way. For the most part, any engineer that has been paying attention to what has been going on will know which way the brakeman wants him to go.
The art of using hand signals is sadly becoming a thing of the past. Most new hires want to gab on the radio all time. Nothing makes my blood boil that to see someone using the radio when they are on the engr side, plain sight perhaps handling only a few cars. I prefer to use hand/lantern whenever possible. It is safer, controls the movement better and forces the hoghead to pay attention by looking for your signals at all times.
How right you are. There is nothing worse than trying to make movements in a big terminal and there is some guy out on the end of a unit clogging up the air waves telling the engineer he is clear for 5 car lengths over and over and over and … when a simple hand signal will do!
And it is sad that the art, and it is an “ART”, of a good hand signal is fading fast. I don’t know how many times I have had to go show a new man the difference between a stop signal and a washout.
Somebody ought to be recording all of this for prosperity, for it won’t be long before it will be nothing but a memory!
Zapp, I’m pretty sure we work for the same outfit. I can’t find in the basic (not changed by local area bulletin) GCOR, or the updates in the SSI or System General Orders where it says that. I know that is how it is taught, and with good reason. Most hand signals are used mostly for switching anyway. Very seldom is a hand signal given to start a train. The only time I’ve seen it used is when we stop to pick up someone who is going to ride a trailing unit, and they are on and ready to go. Even then, the rider will usually just use the radio or if none, ring the attendent call button.
I started looking thru my rule book collection, and most, but not all, don’t have a “forward” hand signal, they call it “proceed”. Even my current GCOR states that.
If a train has one engine unit, signals to the Engineer must be given according to the way the unit is headed…
It is my interpretation and that of the Rules Department, that all hand signals are to be passed the same as radio instructions:
Ahead or Proceed - in the direction of the F painted on the locomotive.
Back - away from the direction of the F.
So, Larry you would give the back up sign - unless there is another accepted signal.
I agree the use of hand signals is a dying art. Alot of the newbies are scared to use anything but the radio.
In addition to the signals in the book, we used several non-standard, but universally known signals:
3 Step - arm outstretched, thumb and index finger forming an O, with the remaining three fingers pointed up and outward. The engineer would pass the signal back after 3 Step was applied.
Make a cut - two balled fists held together. Move one fist up, and the other down.
Make the air hose - both hands held vertically (like you want to shake someone’s hand). Then cross the hand together - mimicking the motion of lacing air hoses.
Kick (I)- switchlist pointed at ground, and moved in a quick circle
Kick (II) - make a kicking motion with your leg.
We also used the size of the signal to indicate how fast or distance to move. Big signals meant fast or a large distance. Little signals meant slow or a short distance.
Um in the daylight according to GCOR go ahead is go ahead no matter the F on the loco. Night time however you better damn well know which way that loco is pointing as when you say go ahead and the nose is facing you its going to be coming your way when actually you want it to go the other way!Thats the only time the F makes a difference.If your giving a hand sign in daytime and you give the go away from me or highball thats the way the engine is to go,night like I say is another story .
General disclaimer this is what it is on my road yours may be different, so please understand my signals may not be the same or may have different meanings.
I hired out on the SP and our hand signals were way different then the MP/TP/UP/MKT and the Rock Island folks we worked with, but eventually we all figured out each other.
It’s up to the old heads to show the new guy’s our old ways, because as most of you know, “Junior” is gonna forget to put his radio on the charger, and not have a spare charged battery in his grip, then what? Or if you screw up and don’t want to advertise it all over hell and back (Done that a few times!).
“Junior” also doesn’t know about fuses and their many uses (ie; ward off mosquites, thaw out frozen switches, etc.)
There are alot of things we to pass along while we’re sitting waiting on Amtrak #21 to get into town.
But what if coming toward you involves pulling, and going away from you is shoving?
Like Carl, I was originally taught by the CNW. Apparently Rock and a few others operate in the same manner. Methods used when I was at the SOO/CP Rail were pretty much the same too. Radio and lantern signals are given in relation to which direction the loco is pointing, and daytime hand signals are come toward me, go away from me. What can mess you up is when one of those darned NS units comes in the yard.
The important thing is to be sure that everybody on the crew agrees on hand signals. On my first student trip, I was with some old heads on one of those really high seniority jobs. I had the feeling the conductor wasn’t too keen on training a new guy. On one of our first moves, we tied onto some cars, and the conductor gives me a hand signal - one that we weren’t taught in class. Well, I didn’t know what to do, so he gives it again, obviously getting frustrated. We were seperated by a good number of cars, and the conductor had the one radio, so there was no way to tell me what to do verbally. I started walking toward him, and he started stomping my way, and right past me. He went to where I was standing and cut in the air. DOH! They had showed us a different sign for making the air (the two hands coming together). Well, I didn’t get much more ground time on that day. Well… until the trainmaster paid our crew a visit,
