I’ve read a bunch of posts in the various DCC comparing threads in which a system is claimed to be better than another because it can handle 6000 engines and 200 throttles. Ok. I exagerate, but you get the idea.
Has anyone maxed out a system to the point where it wasn’t operating? If so, what was the system and what were the parameters that had it crash?
We burnt one up, does that count?
I suspect that it is more likely that you’ll max out the amperage available for running engines… and add a new booster and power district.
It’s an interesting question though.
Jeff,
I meant to say “except for exceeding the amperage” because as you pointed out that can be “fixed” by putting in a booster.
What I am curious about is the parameters of a system. For example, I know the way MRC sends info through the rails is not the most efficient out there and at somepoint the whole thing will “slow down.” As I don’t see myself running more than 4 or 5 locos at anyone time, this wasn’t a problem for me, but at what point does it become a problem? Is this something a person should worry about or is it so far out there that it just becomes a discussion topic? (or bragging topic - “my truck can tow a 20,000lbs trailer” - who cares that it doesn’t have a hitch).
Has DCC already gotten to the point where many of the “features” that are compared are mostly irrelevant (except for the guy that is going to use 200 throttles)?
some systems let you program 9999 digits so you can use you number on the locomotive but each chip talks I dont think it can be draged down I think its 20 on my mrc2000
K
I can only speak of what I know about Digitrax, Others may be different…
Digitrax uses a Stack for refreshing locomotives. That is, Active locomotives… The DB150 used on the empire builder (and genesis which has been replaced by the zypher) had a stack of 22 addresses. What I had originally thought when I purchased my first system was that the EB would ONLY handle 22 locos… That is, capable of addressing and sending commands to 22 different decoders in each refresh loop. If a 23rd were added, it just simply wouldn’t work or would completely knock one off of the stack. The Chief (DCS100) has a stack capability of 120 locos but comes (came) shipped for 22…
The way Digitrax explained it to me, if I remember correctly, is that Each time a signal is sent to a loco, IT get’s moved to the top of the stack. A signal can be a speed change, direction change, lights on, off, etc… When the stack is full, and a loco address gets dropped from the roster, it will basically be ignored until another command is sent To that address… The problem is (was) that if too much is happening at one time, the response time between command and action would grow too long. A loco, btw Could be a consist and I’m using the word loco to mean Locomotive Address. Now, on our average Joe (or Josephine, which ever the case may be) home layouts, this is really a non issue. But on larger layouts where multiple operators and 20 or 30 trains running at once are the name of the game, you can see where you would want to keep the command / action time to a minimum… Adding throttles to the loconet could Also affect timing as they would have to be read on each refresh loop. I think (though not sure) the limit on the digitrax systems is 22 throttles. That, in a nutshell is how it was explained to me.
As to the amperage, as mentioned earlier, more boosters if it becomes a problem.
I’m afraid I would max-out my credit card before I maxed out my Lenz 100. [(-D]
Well, I haven’t been able to max out my Zephyr yet, even trying to run 4 sound units plus others. I can’t FIT any more on the layout, and not have them crash into one another.
I DID try to enter addresses, and it did take TWELVE not 10 before the FF message (indicating all slots are filled). Not sure if it would really run 12 (the spec says 10), I can ony manage 8 and then I have to run around and grab one here and there to keep them from bumping into one another, my layout isn’t that big, and I only have a DT400 plus the Zephyr console to hae active control over locomotives - meaning 3. I can run the additional throttles in JMRI but clicking on a throttle pane to activate it and adjust the speed is not an ideal situation when two locos are on a collision course.
I’ve come to the conclusion that the Zephyr alone will handle almost allt he requirements of my layout, even the full basement expanasion plan, excpet for the fact that even centrally located, I would need more than 50 feet of bus wire to reach the ends - so another booster is almost a requirement just from the bus length standpoint.
If you want to finds out about maxxing out a system, talk to some peopel at The Model Railroad Club, Inc - the guys in Union NJ. They have a HUGE layout and run HUGE operating sessions and often do max out a Digitrax Super Chief with 120 slots. People keep talkign about a PC-based command station,t here’s no reason why it wouldn;t work, and the limit would be either the max number of loco addresses in the NMRA DCC standard or the speed of the PC - even a fast PC might not be able to keep up with refreshing 9000 operating locomotives - plus there WOULD be lag just because of how many packets need to be transmitted.
–Randy
Actually, it’s the command buss that will tend to slow down, not the power buss, although a secondary effect is that what should be sent to the rails will get delayed. For example, if the command buss is slow, it will take some time before that emergency stop command a throttle just issued gets to the command station to be processed and sent to the rails.
It’s not just the number of locos, it’s the total amount of traffic on that command buss. Another example: You could have a zillion loco’s on a layout, all with the same address and controlled by a single throttle, and command buss traffic would be minimal. But add a bunch of stationary decoders, block detection, signalling, and who knows what else and that command buss traffic level is going to rise.
As long as marketing is involved, that will always be the case. After all, the main purpose of marketing is not to prese
Steve,
Yes, I know it will slow down. But has anyone on their home layouts experienced such slow down? If so at what point did it happen?
No, none of my original post was influenced by marketing. It was influenced by many of the posts here.
I guess the point is that in many of the “which DCC system to get” many of the answers totally ignore some of the main factors in my mind. What are you going to run. What are you going to run in the future and what would be need to run, but not necessary.
A guy can post a thread saying “My main involvement in the hobby is superdetailing structures on my 5 by 12 foot HO layout. I have a simple loops of track with a couple of sidings. I own 3 locomotives and really only ever see myself getting at the most 5 more in the next ten years because I usually totally tear them down and rebuilt the boilers from scratch. I mostly like just watching the train go round and round my buildings. I’ve done it this way for 20 years and don’t see myself changing ever. What DCC system should I buy?”
The answer he’ll often times get is “Get the LENZTRAXEasy super bells and whistle system. It comes with a 50 amp power supply and can store 150 addresses in the stack. Its wireless also kicks butt over the other systems with a 500 foot range. Yes, you don’t need it now, but it is totally expandable. It’s only 400.00 more than the “junk” systems that are out there.” It will then be followed by, not only marketing hype, but often misinformation “The Digitrax has a sattelite link system in the works (not picking on Digitrax, just using it as an example) which makes it globallly exandable so that you can run your layout while on vacation in Europe.”
While I totally agree that buying a system that will be obsolute or not able to do what you want it to do after a short time is a big mistake, it is just as big a mistake in my mind to pay for things that will never be used. (Kinda like shopping for a car - why do I ne
Well on my home layout I have 50 engines on it at all times and then when we have an OPs session some of my regulars bring in their engines so I can have up to 55 or so. I have an 8 amp Digitrax system with no boosters. I was able to host OPs with 40 operators and never found out if the system would crash as I still had power to run the layout.
Now when I added 3 BLI sound units the system just had way too many shorts for some unexplained reason. To fix this I added two 8-amp boosters and split the layout into 3 large blocks! This eliminated the problem for the time being.
Now the system is all radio as 99% of the operators use radio for the control. At times we have minor radio problems and this is due to the physical number of bodies in the way of the signal. If I have 15 operators in the room then the radio problems are nonexistence.
BOB H – Clarion, PA
Bob,
Thanks for the info. Did you notice any slowing of reaction time with that many operators?
On my EasyDCC system we’ve have up to 40 locos on the layout and 9 throttles going, 8 of which are wireless. I’ve had very few problems and when we have had problems I can usually narrow things down to operator error.
My EasyDCC system is going on 6 years old now and we have had a couple of the wireless throttles give out. But 5 years is about par for modern electronics before something wears out, so I’m not surprised.
My previous Lenz system started malfunctioning at about the same age, so plan on upgrading and replacing components beyond 5 years of age in your system. When my Lenz system needed upgrading I took a look at what was on the market and went with the top wireless system at the time – EasyDCC. Been very pleased with the change.
davekelly
As far as reaction time with the radio keypads, I could not detect any slow down but then I was not always actively running the layout as I was playing host.
But when I ask my regular operators about the operation of the layout after the session none of them spoke of having any type of delays.
Now we were running about 15 radio keypads at the time.so I would think that if we were having problems it would have been showing up!
BOB H - Clarion, PA
I think that with each locomotive having an address that needs to communicate the system is sufficient for home layouts.
Now if you were trying to run the internet…
The specs actually say twelve. 10 directly off the Zephyr, and the two jump ports for the D/C power packs as throttles.
[quote]
QUOTE: Originally posted by rrinker
Well, I haven’t been able to max out my Zephyr yet, even trying to run 4 sound units plus others. I can’t FIT any more on the layout, and not have them crash into one another.
I DID try to enter addresses, and it did take TWELVE not 10 before the FF message (indicating all slots are filled). Not sure if it would really run 12 (the spec says 10), I can ony manage 8 and then I have to run around and grab one here and there to keep them from bumping into one another, my layout isn’t that big, and I only have a DT400 plus the Zephyr console to hae active control over locomotives - meaning 3. I can run the additional throttles in JMRI but clicking on a throttle pane to activate it and adjust the speed is not an ideal situation when two locos are on a collision course.
I’ve come to the conclusion that the Zephyr alone will handle almost allt he requirements of my layout, even the full basement expanasion plan, excpet for the fact that even centrally located, I would need more than 50 feet of bus wire to reach the ends - so another booster is almost a requirement just from the bus length standpoint.
If you want to finds out about maxxing out a system, talk to some peopel at The Model Railroad Club, Inc - the guys in Union NJ. They have a HUGE layout and run HUGE operating sessions and often do max out a Digitrax Super Chief with 120 slots. People keep talkign about a PC-based command station,t here’s no reason why it wouldn;t work, and the limit would be either the max number of loco addresses in the NMRA DCC standard or the speed of the PC - even a fast PC might not be able to keep up with refreshing 9000 operating locomotives - plus there WOULD be lag just because of how many packets need to be transmitted.
–Randy
I think the reason many answers are like that is because the questions are not as you indicated above. Most of them seem to focus on initial price, OR the questioner is focused on the theoretical (ie, marketing hype) abilities and limitations.
To be honest, I think I’d reccommend that the person in your question not bother with DCC. Doesn’t seem like it would buy him much, if anything, in his situation and he’d have to tear into those hand-crafted locos.
Well, I would tend to think that if they realistically sat down and figured out their present and future needs, knowing full well the true limitations of the system, they most likely wouldn’t buy a system that either had twice as much capability as they needed, or one that wasn’t able to handle their future needs.
Steve
Randy,
Do you know if they just max out the number of slots (loco’s/consists), or do they actually manage to max out the LocoNet?
Steve
As far as I know they only max out slots. It’s going to take a LOT to max out Loconet, since it’s a peer system like ethernet, NOT polled like the others use.
–Randy
My dad and I visited The Model Railroad Club way back in the 80’s and man was I impressed. If they can’t slow down the Loconet, nothing can!