Something else to keep in mind - if you are using the Tortoise contacts to power the frog, be very careful to align the Tortoise correctly - that unfriendly to DCC is just as unfriendly to DC if the Tortoise contacts switch over before the points pull away, or don’t switch over after the points have moved to touch the new stock rail. The dead spot in the Tortoise contacts is fairly small. Had this problem at the club I used to belong to. The was a whole serioes of web sites years back that showed you how to mod the Tortoise to make the gap bigger - firm contact at the ends of travel, but a bigger blank space in between, almost entirely to work with Shinohara and the earlier Walthers/Shinohara non-DCC friendly turnouts. Also would help with a stright out of the box Peco Electrofrog, if left in stock for it would have the same problem, perhaps wors if you didn;t take out the spring because the points could snap into the new positon long before the Tortoise contacts have switched.
Randy is completely correct about this. I did not want to confuse the basic question with this added bit of “disaster in waiting.”
I add a pair of contact switches to all my tortoises to power the frog. This set-up breaks the circuit as soon as the switch machine moves, and does not make the circuit until it is all the way through its travel.
There is a very large open circuit through the moving of the points.
I would never power the frog through the contacts built into the Tortoise.
Why not? At least, if not using the Shinohara turnouts. It’s not like it’s possible to switch high currents, no more than one loco can be on a frog at once.
I’m the first to admit I fail to wear safety glasses as often as I should. when installing Tortoise, being a lone wolf, I use a longer wire and drop the turnout on top of it, then cut the excess. And this is one time when I ALWAYS wear safety glasses. I use a small hardened steel end nipper to cut the excess wire. On the first layout I had one go flying, and never found it. Until I tore that layout down and found it–embedded 2" into the ceiling. Yowza! Now I wrap a bunch of masking tape at the top before I cut. And wear gloves. Even if the top flys out of my hand, I can find it.
BTW I use the end nipper because I tried the cutoff disc once. It skipped on me (entirely due to stupid user error), and it was time to order a new turnout.
Been there, done that! I wrap a masking tape “flag” on to the end being cut off and hold it while nipping.
I never tried a cutoff wheel because I’d be afraid of the heat melting the throw bar, or at least enlarging the hole.
I apply a “slippery sheet” under my throw bar most times. This can be a piece of mylar or a stiff backing sheet found on some adhesive “stick-on” items.
Cut a thin slot in it for the Tortoise actuating wire and it will also help fill in the big hole through the roadbed.
Almost all my frogs are wired through the Tortoise contacts. The ones that aren’t have frog juicers wired to them. I do have the non-power routing turnouts, though. I knew a modeler who opened up every Tortoise he had and cut a gap in the PC board trace of the switch to make it into a “Break-before-make” type.
In the “old days” before I replaced almost all my power-routing turnouts the intermittant shorting WAS a problem at times.
I have always bought that .039 music with at the Local Hardware Store, not a train shop. You might find hardware stores open when train shops are not.
There is a small hole in the moving actuator on the Tortoise that the wire goes through. Remember, that hole all needs to be enlarged slightly when going to a thicker wire.
After cutting a Tortoise wire, I usually take a small metal file and bevel the ends. This helps the wire slip through the holes on the Tortoise and the throwbar.
That’s good to know but also somewhat disappointing. My reason for going with the Tortoises was so I could switch the point and change the polarity of the frog with one switch. Right now I’m using SPDT on the frogs and I switch them to the center off position, switch the points, and then throw the SPDT to the correct position. Since its a crossover, I have to do that for both switches. That’s 6 moves. 6 chances to make an error.
Gee, that sounds like a tough way to go about it. No wonder you want Tortoise control.
You can effectively widen the Tortoise dead band by moving the fulcrum further away from the actuator. Your limit being the least amount of movement needed to move the points full sweep.
Typically, a Tortoise comes to rest with some amount of overshoot i.e. pre-loading on the wire. There to make sure the point rails are held tight to the stock rails preventing picking the point. Moving the fulcrum away from the actuator lessens the pre-load. Using the least required amount of pre-load maximizes the dead band width.
I think it may be possible for you to do this using your unfriendly switches by fine tuning the Tortoise installation. If you can match full point sweep to full actuator sweep then a Tortoise has plenty of dead band.
The throwbar to Tortoise distance and propensity of your rolling stock to pick switches will dictate whether fine tuning is a valid solution or not.
Yes, I didn’t say it can;t work - you just have to be careful and lien them up properly. Adjusting the position of the Tortoise fixed the problem turnouts at the club.
The Tortoise has enough throw that you ordinarily don’t have to be super precise in positioning it. But with turnouts like these Shinhara where both point rails are the same polarity, you have to be a little more careful to center it correctly. That’s all.
Although with these types of turnouts ana double crossover - figuring out which frog gets what polairy from which Tortoise may be a bit daunting - that’s what Frog Juicers were invented for.
This is actually very easy now if I am understanding it correctly.
You are using two Non-DCC Friendly (old style) #8 turnouts to make your single crossover. You are not using a Shinohara double crossover. Your layout is DCC. I hope this is correct. I gleaned this information from you previous posts, sorry if I missed a later detail.
You can use one DPDT reverser two power both Tortoise switch machines.
Insulate BOTH frog rails between the turnouts, and each rail from the frog that goes the the non-divergent path about 8 inches away. Then just use a frog juicer on each frog.
I believe that will be OK. That is how I set up a single crossover on a friends DCC layout.
One toggle does it all (and two frog juicers).
On my DC layout this is much more complicated, but I can still do it with one DPDT toggle. I just need SPST auxiliary contact on both Tortoise switch machines and a lot more wire.
That’s how I’ve planned it all along. The only fly in the ointment was the actuator rod not moving the point rails sufficiently. For that it seems I just need a stiffer wire. Amazon is supposed to deliver that next Friday. Hopefully earlier.
There is one catch which I don’t see as a problem. The two turnouts are in different DCC zones and when crossing over the train moves from one zone to another. Probably wasn’t the best of planning but I’m not going to change it now. I think I can still get away with a single DPDT if internally the tortoise does not link the turnout motor to the track connectors which would surprise me if it does. Unless I am missing something, connecting the two Tortoise motors is not going to connect rail power between the two turnouts.
The new .039 music wire arrived yesterday afternoon and today I reinstalled the Tortoises. Everything is working just like I hoped. You weren’t kidding when you said they have to be lined up correctly. There doesn’t seem to be much margin for error. Probably less than 1/8". I installed the first one using the holes I had drilled when I did the initial install with the original actuator rod. As you indicated, the polarity to the frog got flipped before the point rail broke contact and created a short. I moved the holes about 1/8" and that solved the problem.
For the second one, I had yet to drill any holes so I tried to be very careful lining it up but still didn’t get it exactly right. I had to make a minor adjustment but got things working like they should.
I didn’t want to use the Dremel to cut off the excess actuator rod because I was afraid I would damage the throw bar. I have a heavy duty wire cutters and I used a scrap piece of 2 inch foam as a shield because I am aware how it can turn into a missile when
A lot depends upon the materials that the Tortoise wires have to protrude through - - - plywood, foam, cork. And it also depends upon the diameter of the hole that is drill through those materials.
On my layout, I use 1/2" plywood for the surface and cork for the roadbed. I cut a 5/8" diameter hole through the plywood with a spade bit and a matching hole through the cork with a hobby knife. That hole leaves plenty of opening to position the Tortoise wire. And there is a tolerance for error when positioning the Tortoise from underneath the layout.
The problem with tolerence is the use of those old Shinohara turnouts and the Tortoise contacts to power route the frog. On say an Atlas turnout, there is plenty of room for the Tortoise to be off center and still work reliably. Or a Peco Electrofrog modified as recommended (easy), or if the Shinohara was modified as recommended (hard - because you have to completely replace the throwbar). Or, don’t use the Tortoise contacts and use a Frog Juicer with DCC, but they don;t work with DC, you need contacts of some sort.
I had drilled half inch holes as well through 3/4" plywood and 1/8" cork road bed. The actuator rod had plenty of room to move. These old Shinora turnouts are fairly stiff compared to Atlas turnouts and needed a stiffer wire. After installing using the original wire included with the Tortoise I could see the actuator rod was moving but was bending because it wasn’t strong enough to move the throw bar. I’m guessing the original actuator wire would have been good enough if I
The good news is Amazon shipped me 12 feet of the .039 wire and I’ve only used about 8 inches of it. I’m going to use one of the 3 foot pieces to repair the hoop of the net I use to clean my fish pond. That still leaves me with enough for a lot more turnouts.
